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Why Are Coding Bootcamps Going Out of Business?

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Re: Why Are Coding Bootcamps Going Out of Business?

#51

Post by zippergz »

mnutt wrote: post #31
pjdemers wrote: post #10

People are realizing that even though coding pays well, it's not a job for everyone. We hired 4 people out of boot camps. All had a decent level of skill (of course they did, we choose the 4 we liked out of dozens available). However after a few weeks, two of them left, saying: "there is no f'en way I can do this 40 hours a week for the next few decades". And they went back to their old jobs and old pay.

I think the best bootcamps do a pretty good job of having students answer that question during admissions or during the class itself. If you aren't getting some fulfillment during class, you probably won't during work either. For what it's worth, my company has hired half a dozen developers out of bootcamps (Fullstack and App Academy) and none of them have left or expressed interest in leaving the field.

I don't know. I could easily see myself being the type of person who would have a lot of fun (and get a lot of fulfillment) during a bootcamp, but be bored out of my mind shortly into my first real job. I get a lot more enjoyment out of learning new things than I do from pure programming. I've been lucky that through my career I've gotten to work on some amazing projects at top of the line companies, so there's a decent amount of learning happening day-to-day -- far more than I am sure happens at run of the mill in-house developer jobs. But even then, I found that I dislike jobs that involve programming all day long, so I gradually transitioned into other roles where I can still use my technical skills but don't spend most of my time writing code. I definitely didn't have that clarity of preferences until I'd actually been doing the real job for a little bit, because it's way different from class.

Re: Why Are Coding Bootcamps Going Out of Business?

#52

Post by wooter »

ryanmarsh wrote: post #17
pjdemers wrote: post #10

People are realizing that even though coding pays well, it's not a job for everyone. We hired 4 people out of boot camps. All had a decent level of skill (of course they did, we choose the 4 we liked out of dozens available). However after a few weeks, two of them left, saying: "there is no f'en way I can do this 40 hours a week for the next few decades". And they went back to their old jobs and old pay.

That sounds to me like a resounding success. 50% of your hires from a 12 week program worked out? Do you realize what that would mean for the country if we could put people back to work that cheaply?

thats the graduation rate of some high schools

Re: Why Are Coding Bootcamps Going Out of Business?

#53

Post by mseebach »

trentmb wrote: post #16
pjdemers wrote: post #10

People are realizing that even though coding pays well, it's not a job for everyone. We hired 4 people out of boot camps. All had a decent level of skill (of course they did, we choose the 4 we liked out of dozens available). However after a few weeks, two of them left, saying: "there is no f'en way I can do this 40 hours a week for the next few decades". And they went back to their old jobs and old pay.

> "there is no f'en way I can do this 40 hours a week for the next few decades" Not a bootcamp grad, but I just hit my two year mark a couple weeks ago and want to blow my brains out. Writing internal web applications is the most mind numbing thing ever. It's gotten to the point where I have so much trouble keeping focused at work. The real issue is that I have no idea what field I'd pivot into.

First, with the caveat of obviously not knowing you or your job, it's my experience that it's rarely the case that an area as broad as "writing internal web applications" is actually inherently boring to a person. The parable of the stonecutters come to mind, are you cutting stone or are you building a cathedral? Find out what energises you. Think back, what were good days and what did you do? Try to do more of that, try to make the work you do more like that kind of work.

Of course, there are plenty of jobs that aren't remotely in the cathedral building business, and if that's the case, start networking. Get on Meetup and attend some meetings or hackathons or startup weekends or whatever. Your skills are generally in demand, so focus on getting inspiration for what might interest you, or meeting people that you think you'd enjoy working with, and let that guide your job search.

And don't let internal webapps scare you. Building a "boring" app for a team that does good things with it and appreciates your work can be very satisfying.

Re: Why Are Coding Bootcamps Going Out of Business?

#54

Post by wooter »

NDizzle wrote: post #33
tptacek wrote: post #5

A 250k Haskell programming job in SFBA is prima facie evidence of a "skills gap". The law of supply and demand says that's how you evaluate an inadequate number of available programmers. It's facile to suggest there's an adequate labor supply because employers can acquire developers simply by paying 5x the national median income. I would suggest instead that we focus on two other problems with bootcamps, one mentione…

I wouldn't move myself and my family to the SFBA for a $250k job. Perhaps that's cliché to say that kind of thing at this point. It needs to pay more due to the cost of living. I'm making > 200 now in a city-data.com cost of living index 91 city. SF is COL index 170. The people who would take that job already have a similar job, more or less. It's not a skill gap so much as a "willing to put up with SF bullshit" gap.

SF is 7x7 miles. Thats plenty of money if you're ok living elsewhere in the 6900 square miles of "bay area"

Re: Why Are Coding Bootcamps Going Out of Business?

#55

Post by jasode »

austenallred wrote: post #23
wolco wrote: post #2

Because those who can learn under those conditions can easily learn the material for free and many have before attending. What they use a bootcamp for is a bridge into a career. People are finding other less costly ways into the job market. The bootcamps of the future will focus on either the experienced developers wanting to learn a new language/skill quickly. The structure will be like an extended conference where…

I think people underestimate how difficult it is to teach yourself, especially when there are so many different ways to learn and a million different paths to take. One of the most important parts of bootcamps, in my mind, is that all of the curriculum is there, in the right order, and on a set schedule. When I taught myself to program I probably spent 80% of my time finding the right resources and understanding what…

>I think people underestimate how difficult it is to teach yourself,

I wanted to give some counterpoint to that. The point is not to argue with you because you clearly felt that it was "difficult" so by extension, it makes sense to project the learning obstacles out the world so we know they are there. You felt there were hurdles and that's all in the past so we can't argue with what you felt.

(Hopefully, the above was said with enough empathy to not sound critical because one has to be open-minded about the following observation...)

There are others[1] who think that the discipline for self-teaching is the baseline skill for average computer programmers and that attending "coding bootcamps" is a negative signal. I believe the thinking is... if one requires coding bootcamps to learn Javascript/Ruby/Mongo, it doesn't instill confidence in the hiring manager that the person will be able to learn new topics on-the-job that will be more difficult, with an undefined curriculum, under tighter deadlines.

If people still want to say "fuck off" to the types of people that look down on coding bootcamps, that's fine as long you're aware that the hiring prejudices are out there and you have consciously chosen to ignore those companies.

[1] examples:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7600307

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12940314

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11732885

Re: Why Are Coding Bootcamps Going Out of Business?

#56

Post by austenallred »

jasode wrote: post #55
austenallred wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think people underestimate how difficult it is to teach yourself, especially when there are so many different ways to learn and a million different paths to take. One of the most important parts of bootcamps, in my mind, is that all of the curriculum is there, in the right order, and on a set schedule. When I taught myself to program I probably spent 80% of my time finding the right resources and understanding what…

>I think people underestimate how difficult it is to teach yourself, I wanted to give some counterpoint to that. The point is not to argue with you because you clearly felt that it was "difficult" so by extension, it makes sense to project the learning obstacles out the world so we know they are there. You felt there were hurdles and that's all in the past so we can't argue with what you felt. (Hopefully, the above w…

My point was not that the material itself was difficult to learn, but that knowing which direction to go in, or knowing what material to learn, was the more difficult part.

Re: Why Are Coding Bootcamps Going Out of Business?

#57

Post by cribbles »

They aren't. Two specific coding bootcamps that 1) had been acquired by for-profit education conglomerates and 2) underwent relatively rapid expansion into second and third tier tech markets went out of business.

As evidence of a larger trend, this article cites a single quote from the CEO of "a private lender and an alternative accreditor for the fast-growing boot camp sector." This is unpersuasive.

Re: Why Are Coding Bootcamps Going Out of Business?

#58

Post by jasode »

austenallred wrote: post #56
jasode wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I think people underestimate how difficult it is to teach yourself, I wanted to give some counterpoint to that. The point is not to argue with you because you clearly felt that it was "difficult" so by extension, it makes sense to project the learning obstacles out the world so we know they are there. You felt there were hurdles and that's all in the past so we can't argue with what you felt. (Hopefully, the above w…

My point was not that the material itself was difficult to learn, but that knowing which direction to go in, or knowing what material to learn, was the more difficult part.

>, but that knowing which direction to go in

But the coding bootcamp's curriculum and sequencing isn't necessarily superior. It could be as arbitrary or suboptimal as any low-rated 1-star book on Amazon.

A curious programmer would actually be skeptical that the bootcamp has the proven syllabus for learning.

Therefore, find a 5-star book on Javascript/Ruby on Amazon, and start with Ch 1. What evidence (not marketing materials) would the novice programmer see that makes the coding bootcamp's sequencing superior to that?

Re: Why Are Coding Bootcamps Going Out of Business?

#59

Post by vyrotek »

NDizzle wrote: post #33
tptacek wrote: post #5

A 250k Haskell programming job in SFBA is prima facie evidence of a "skills gap". The law of supply and demand says that's how you evaluate an inadequate number of available programmers. It's facile to suggest there's an adequate labor supply because employers can acquire developers simply by paying 5x the national median income. I would suggest instead that we focus on two other problems with bootcamps, one mentione…

I wouldn't move myself and my family to the SFBA for a $250k job. Perhaps that's cliché to say that kind of thing at this point. It needs to pay more due to the cost of living. I'm making > 200 now in a city-data.com cost of living index 91 city. SF is COL index 170. The people who would take that job already have a similar job, more or less. It's not a skill gap so much as a "willing to put up with SF bullshit" gap.

Agreed, the salaries just don't scale with with the CoL in many cities. As someone in an index 93 city (Phoenix) I don't know how people are taking $100k jobs in SF and Seattle. $200k in an index 91 city is definitely great. Is that a dev position?

Re: Why Are Coding Bootcamps Going Out of Business?

#60

Post by caycep »

pjdemers wrote: post #10

People are realizing that even though coding pays well, it's not a job for everyone. We hired 4 people out of boot camps. All had a decent level of skill (of course they did, we choose the 4 we liked out of dozens available). However after a few weeks, two of them left, saying: "there is no f'en way I can do this 40 hours a week for the next few decades". And they went back to their old jobs and old pay.

I suppose. For New Economy jobs, they are at least an option. I had a friend who was toiling away at a thankless PR job, communications major. Did coding bootcamp and she is much much happier working at a financial/web services startup
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