Sugar-sweetened drinks with protein rich meal affect metabolism • Hacker News Board

Re: Sugar-sweetened drinks with protein rich meal affect metabolism

#51

Post by evincarofautumn » Sun, Jul 23, 2017, 1:18 PM UTC

ekidd wrote: post #45

beagle3 wrote: post #6

Note that (at least the summary indicates) this experiment refutes "calories in calories out" theory - food composition affects thermogenesis. (I am not talking about the tautological and useless thermodynamic sense in which it definitely is true; I am talking about the "measure your intake and exercise" crowd)

"Calories in, calories out" is both true (in the thermodynamic sense) and accurate enough to be useful (in a practical sense). I've personally performed the experiment, using MyFitnessPal and a $14 digital scale, and it turns out that I can control my weight to within a few pounds. There are a few caveats: - Yes, your diet composition does have metabolic effects. Protein, sugar and fat all follow different metabolic…

An even blunter instrument that I’ve found very useful for weight and health is “mass in, mass out”.

That is, in a First Law sense, you can’t gain more than the mass of what you eat & drink, and you will always lose a certain amount of mass each day through breathing (metabolism, exercise) and excreting (waste, sweat).

So for example I lose 1–2 pounds a day with my metabolism, activity level, and diet, so I eat a bit more than that per day and try to make sure that those foods are healthy most of the time. For me, “healthy” means mostly plant-based, high in fiber, balanced in nutrients, and so on. I joke that my diet consists of vegan food and cheeseburgers, but it’s pretty close to the truth.

I think this should be the first step that most people take toward changing their dietary habits, because it’s dead simple: look at the weight on the package of the stuff you’re putting in your face, and get a cheap kitchen scale if you want to be particular about it. Then incorporate calories as you begin to get an intuitive sense of how caloric density affects the answer to “How much of this can I eat if I want to maintain/lose/gain weight?” and then incorporate other details like macronutrients.

Even before all this, the zeroth step is to document your habits by just writing them down. It might just be how my mind works, but if I want to fix something about what I’m doing—eating, sleeping, taking drugs—then it’s way easier to think about it in terms of adjusting a graph than all the details of the actual problem at hand.

Re: Sugar-sweetened drinks with protein rich meal affect metabolism

#52

Post by will_brown » Sun, Jul 23, 2017, 1:21 PM UTC

phicoh wrote: post #41

DanBC wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And people almost always overestimate how much they've burnt, and often eat more to compensate.

My (entirely non-scientific) opinion is that most people exercise the wrong way. After a bit of training, muscles can store carbon-hydrates for about 1.5 hours of exercise. When these carbs a burned, muscles take new carbs directly from the blood stream. So if you exercise by burning mostly carbs and don't eat, you end up with low blood sugar levels and a very strong urge to eat. The trick is to burn fat. But to burn…

I'm a distance runner and personally find I enjoy a high fat diet for balancing weight, performance (how I feel more than time), and physique (entirely ego driven, but can't over look the real effect of thoughts/beliefs on health).

That said I have personally run on high fat (even in ketosis, and seperately eating animal products and vegan); high protein/more fairly a body builder bulking macro(including dairy protein: whey and casein); and high carb. And we all know we can find athletes of the highest level in every sport practicing various mixtures of those diets to great success. So I don't think it is fair to say people are doing it wrong by burning primarily glucose as opposed to fat.

I think the most successful diets (no matter the macro nutrient philosophy) have the following in common:

1. Hydration/absorption: obviously no matter what cells must be properly hydrated and absorb micro/macro nutrients.

2. Anti-inflammatory foods: inflammation is linked to every chronic disease there is and even at the highest levels of performance do you want your cells combating inflammation or involved in the krebs cycle.

3. Anti-toxin: toxins can be eliminated from the body through the pores or excretion. Not all toxins can be sweated out and not all will naturally be excreated but certain foods can bind to toxins. So foods promoting removal of toxins from the body are important, but outside diet, exercise is important, abstaining from toxins like cigarettes is important, and probably because of the level of toxins on the modern western diet practices like juice cleanses and fastings could be important tools toward anti toxin cellular health.

4. Anti oxidants: as cells oxidize free radical can spread around the body, it's important to eliminate or isolate free radicals which can be potential causes of diseases like cancer.

5. Micro/macro nutrient: someone else mentioned maximizing micro nutrient intake to calorie ratio, that's probably a good way to put it. As I mentioned I'm starting to see macros as a personal choice based on the individual, that said I have very strong opinions to support my high fat preference (not keto though) and think so long as a person has achieved cellular health through 1-4 they too can experiment with their macros to suite their personal desire and needs.

6. Microbiome: I don't even pretend to understand what's going on here, but often hear this refered to as the second brain. While a neat phrase I'll just point to a study in equatorial Africa on twins, where it's not uncommon to have identical twins on the same diet 1 malnurished and the other not with the only difference to be found in their microbiome.

Re: Sugar-sweetened drinks with protein rich meal affect metabolism

#53

Post by bilbo0s » Sun, Jul 23, 2017, 1:31 PM UTC

dade_ wrote: post #43

gaius wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fruit juice? Does fructose vs sucrose make a difference?

Sucrose is one part fructose and one part glucose. Our cells use glucose for energy directly, the liver metabolizes fructose. This similarity of fructose and alcohol is the basis of the whole sugar is a poison. Fruit is fructose, which is probably why we are to be able to metabolize it, but fruit is generally very high in fibre and around the size of a serving or 2. Serving sizes of juice and additive sugars are extr…

A bit off topic, but if anyone reading through could explain to me why adding fiber to fructose makes it "good" sugar I'd be really interested. I mean, I know that we need fruits and vegetables in our diets. I know that apples and carrots are good for me. I just don't understand why fructose without fiber is bad?

Right now... I just don't drink the soda or sugary drinks at all. But I don't really understand the science behind my decision.

Because I'm eating apples and carrots all the time ???

Re: Sugar-sweetened drinks with protein rich meal affect metabolism

#54

Post by bokglobule » Sun, Jul 23, 2017, 1:42 PM UTC

bilbo0s wrote: post #53

dade_ wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sucrose is one part fructose and one part glucose. Our cells use glucose for energy directly, the liver metabolizes fructose. This similarity of fructose and alcohol is the basis of the whole sugar is a poison. Fruit is fructose, which is probably why we are to be able to metabolize it, but fruit is generally very high in fibre and around the size of a serving or 2. Serving sizes of juice and additive sugars are extr…

A bit off topic, but if anyone reading through could explain to me why adding fiber to fructose makes it "good" sugar I'd be really interested. I mean, I know that we need fruits and vegetables in our diets. I know that apples and carrots are good for me. I just don't understand why fructose without fiber is bad? Right now... I just don't drink the soda or sugary drinks at all. But I don't really understand the scien…

What people really mean here is that when you consume real fruit, you get fiber, vitamins, other micro nutrients and, yes, fructose. But the quantity of fructose you get is relatively small. When people drink fruit juice, basically all they are getting is the fructose (with water). And you're getting many apples worth at one time. This overloads the liver which starts turning the fructose into fat.

So eating an apple or an orange is fine. Drinking fruit juice is not. Hope this helps

Re: Sugar-sweetened drinks with protein rich meal affect metabolism

#55

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Jul 23, 2017, 1:51 PM UTC

bilbo0s wrote: post #53

dade_ wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sucrose is one part fructose and one part glucose. Our cells use glucose for energy directly, the liver metabolizes fructose. This similarity of fructose and alcohol is the basis of the whole sugar is a poison. Fruit is fructose, which is probably why we are to be able to metabolize it, but fruit is generally very high in fibre and around the size of a serving or 2. Serving sizes of juice and additive sugars are extr…

A bit off topic, but if anyone reading through could explain to me why adding fiber to fructose makes it "good" sugar I'd be really interested. I mean, I know that we need fruits and vegetables in our diets. I know that apples and carrots are good for me. I just don't understand why fructose without fiber is bad? Right now... I just don't drink the soda or sugary drinks at all. But I don't really understand the scien…

[deleted]

Re: Sugar-sweetened drinks with protein rich meal affect metabolism

#56

Post by CuriousSkeptic » Sun, Jul 23, 2017, 1:51 PM UTC

bilbo0s wrote: post #53

dade_ wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sucrose is one part fructose and one part glucose. Our cells use glucose for energy directly, the liver metabolizes fructose. This similarity of fructose and alcohol is the basis of the whole sugar is a poison. Fruit is fructose, which is probably why we are to be able to metabolize it, but fruit is generally very high in fibre and around the size of a serving or 2. Serving sizes of juice and additive sugars are extr…

A bit off topic, but if anyone reading through could explain to me why adding fiber to fructose makes it "good" sugar I'd be really interested. I mean, I know that we need fruits and vegetables in our diets. I know that apples and carrots are good for me. I just don't understand why fructose without fiber is bad? Right now... I just don't drink the soda or sugary drinks at all. But I don't really understand the scien…

Besides just making it hard to overdose on sugars it also slows down digestion to soften the blow, can even reduce amount absorbed at all.

More info https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/fibre-reduces-insulin...

Re: Sugar-sweetened drinks with protein rich meal affect metabolism

#57

Post by charlesdm » Sun, Jul 23, 2017, 1:52 PM UTC

DiThi wrote: post #36

charlesdm wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personal experience: I lost some weight using a low carb diet, and now I'm slowly switching back. Basically I've cut back on everything processed, because frankly most of it is garbage. Cooking using good quality foods (veg + fresh fish and/or meat) does a lot + I feel much better. If I do go for a sugary treats, then it's some good quality artisanal chocolate instead of mass produced crap. One downside: I noticed my…

> One downside: I noticed my bi-weekly shopping bills to have definitely gone up. Mine has gone down after switching to eggs as default go-to food.

Low carb or not, I can't believe eating 40+ eggs a week is healthy. Balance it out, yo! Plus, while I like eggs (a lot), they do get boring after a while. There are only so many different ways to prepare them.

Re: Sugar-sweetened drinks with protein rich meal affect metabolism

#58

Post by bahjoite » Sun, Jul 23, 2017, 1:52 PM UTC

bilbo0s wrote: post #53

dade_ wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sucrose is one part fructose and one part glucose. Our cells use glucose for energy directly, the liver metabolizes fructose. This similarity of fructose and alcohol is the basis of the whole sugar is a poison. Fruit is fructose, which is probably why we are to be able to metabolize it, but fruit is generally very high in fibre and around the size of a serving or 2. Serving sizes of juice and additive sugars are extr…

A bit off topic, but if anyone reading through could explain to me why adding fiber to fructose makes it "good" sugar I'd be really interested. I mean, I know that we need fruits and vegetables in our diets. I know that apples and carrots are good for me. I just don't understand why fructose without fiber is bad? Right now... I just don't drink the soda or sugary drinks at all. But I don't really understand the scien…

The fibre in fruit allows a signal to stop eating to be sent to the brain. The fibre doesn't make the sugar good, but you will stop eating when you're sated and so consume less sugar. No such signal is sent when drinking sugary drinks, so it's more likely you will consume more sugar.

Re: Sugar-sweetened drinks with protein rich meal affect metabolism

#59

Post by burger_moon » Sun, Jul 23, 2017, 1:53 PM UTC

ulber wrote: post #33

bitL wrote: post #18

There go protein bars... Does anyone know if artificial sweeteners hack the body to switch to "fat storage" mode as well? Like metabolism after Coke Zero with no sugar still causing excessive fat storage? Our bodies seem to use some silly heuristics all the time, like the one hacked by drinking plain water but with scent of a fruit in front of a nose, forcing brain thinking we drink juice...

The control group in this study was drinking an artificially sweetened drink in place of the sugary one. Otherwise, this answer [1] refers to recent studies having shown insulin rising from artificial sweeteners, but says the research on links to actual weight gain is still ongoing (I have no idea if that answer is current). [1] http://www.health.harvard.edu/diabetes/ask-the-doctor-do-art...

Do you have a subscription to that? I was only able to read the first paragraph but it mentioned resistance to insulin which I thought is different than temporarily causing your insulin levels to rise from consuming a sugary drink or eating a high carb food like rice. I'm really interested to know if drinking something with sugar alcohol,aspartame, or sucralose causes insulin level spikes like sugar does.

Re: Sugar-sweetened drinks with protein rich meal affect metabolism

#60

Post by VLM » Sun, Jul 23, 2017, 1:54 PM UTC

bilbo0s wrote: post #53

dade_ wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sucrose is one part fructose and one part glucose. Our cells use glucose for energy directly, the liver metabolizes fructose. This similarity of fructose and alcohol is the basis of the whole sugar is a poison. Fruit is fructose, which is probably why we are to be able to metabolize it, but fruit is generally very high in fibre and around the size of a serving or 2. Serving sizes of juice and additive sugars are extr…

A bit off topic, but if anyone reading through could explain to me why adding fiber to fructose makes it "good" sugar I'd be really interested. I mean, I know that we need fruits and vegetables in our diets. I know that apples and carrots are good for me. I just don't understand why fructose without fiber is bad? Right now... I just don't drink the soda or sugary drinks at all. But I don't really understand the scien…

Slower intake rate. Much like your liver can metabolize an oz of alcohol per hour in perpetuity (well, until liver cancer sets in) and you won't even get drunk, but trying to drink 100 oz all at once every 100 hours will promptly kill you. So the theory is slapping your blood and insulin system with the equivalent of 20 apples in a single impulse will mess with your insulin levels and fat storage rates much more than slowly sipping it in, by having chunks of apple take hours if not an entire day to digest.

Sipping a glass of apple juice over the course of an entire day would probably be healthier than slamming it in one gulp, however your dentist probably wouldn't approve. Speaking of dentists, scrubbing the flat surfaces of my teeth by grinding carrots for awhile in my mouth should lead to fewer dental issues than soaking my teeth's plaque layer in completely liquid acid and sugar.

There's also the fairly obvious issue that given the choice of 100 grams of apple fructose or 50 grams of fructose plus 50 grams of inactive fiber, obviously the raw fruit will provide fewer calories for a given subjective level of fullness. I know I'm eating junk food when I juice, but sometimes its fun and it certainly is tasty, and it never fails to amaze me how it takes half a bag of produce to generate a cup of juice. Most of the calories in that bag are in my cup of juice. A normal snack for me is a couple carrots, but I can turn five pounds of carrot calories into a (very large) cup and slam it.

Possibly your body can survive having the liquid sugar of 25 apples slammed into it instantly, every day. Certainly we never evolved to eat that way, so if we can handle it without sickness, its just good luck as opposed to evolutionary pressure. Our ancestors digested a lot of citrus very slowly one piece at a time, there was strong evolutionary pressure to thrive eating a piece of fruit per meal.