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If borders were open

economist.com

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Re: If borders were open

#101

Post by gumby »

fche wrote: post #46
gumby wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if we ignore that a billion people would migrate in a few months in an attempt to escape poverty. The article specifically discusses this.

Is this the part you're referring to: "Unskilled migrants care for babies or the elderly, thus freeing the native-born to do more lucrative work." Sorry, no, I don't want migrants deeply afflicted with weird cultures left alone with my baby nor my mother.

> Is this the part you're referring to:

> "Unskilled migrants care for babies or the elderly, thus freeing the native-born to do more lucrative work."

No, it's this:

> Gallup, a pollster, estimated in 2013 that 630m people—about 13% of the world’s population—would migrate permanently if they could, and even more would move temporarily. Some 138m would settle in the United States, 42m in Britain and 29m in Saudi Arabia.

> Gallup’s numbers could be an overestimate. People do not always do what they say they will. Leaving one’s homeland requires courage and resilience.

So less than a billion, net, world wide.

> Sorry, no, I don't want migrants deeply afflicted with weird cultures left alone with my baby nor my mother.

Well you are free to continue to pay the higher price for the person of the culture you prefer. Others who don't care can pay a lower price. Isn't that capitalism?

Re: If borders were open

#102

Post by conanbatt »

Zahlmeister wrote: post #100
conanbatt wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For someone escaping a war torn country, finding a wall he cant surpass to escape death and destructive would surely be oppressive. He wants to do something that provokes no harm, and a state is telling him he can't. If you don't like that they represent a cost to the german state, you can take it up to the idea of welfare, and if you removed completely for the people that entered the country, they would still go to…

You're special pleading for those fleeing from war-torn countries. Your original argument however is that everyone should be able to move freely. There were migrants coming in from Africa well before the Syria/Iraq crisis, though most of those never ended up in Germany, but rather in Greece or Italy. > The case for germany to still provide financial support is that is a huge long term benefit that is tax beneficial,…

> You're special pleading for those fleeing from war-torn countries

I wasnt talking about refugees at all until you mentioned it and i tried to answer. If you wish we can remove them altogether from the general case of immigration policy.

> If you want to make an utilitarian argument

Im not making a utilitarian argument, I'm explaining that the tax-cost can be a very cost-effective tax investment for the state, so it can be sensible policy, regardless of ideology. This however pertains very exclusively to the refugees that need assistance a lot more than the general case of an immigrant, that could have some sort of idea and means to do something.

> We could just let people apply through a visa process, and decide who to take in.

I dont get how this is utilitarian at all. The cost of the infrastructure + lost benefits from the people that dont move + the increased barrier of entry has an economic cost. Thats the whole point of the original article, that there is value to be created by reducing the restrictions.

> Why should we spend the extra effort to educate all these people when we could just take those already educated in other countries?

Then don't..who is asking for that? Certainly not foreigners at the ballots.

> You know, just like the US does it.

U.S. is a good example of shooting itself in the foot. Unles some special circumstances are allowed, no foreign software engineer can get hired in the US until Oct. 2018, which means lots of people are going to move to germany which has a way more lax immigration policy. Biggest favor the US government did to the Berlin startup scene.

> Also, there are lots of lower-income EU countries whose citizens have the right to be here. They're performing a lot of the work that they could lose to even cheaper immigrants from even poorer countries, if the laws allowed it. The pressure for unskilled labor is higher than ever.

"We should use force to not allow other people to move so I can have higher wages" -> how is this not oppression to you? Motive, Means and Opportunity.

> If we didn't pay them, they'd be forced to beg on the streets once they run out of travel money.

You have to choose if you wish to do charity or not. You should not be obliged to do charity, but you should not harm people because you do charity. The beggar in Germany would be better there than begging in Syria, or otherwise they would not keep moving the way the do. That you find a beggar unsightly is a problem to you, not the beggars problem,and you are welcome to try to fix it by donating.

Re: If borders were open

#103

Post by Zahlmeister »

conanbatt wrote: post #102
Zahlmeister wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're special pleading for those fleeing from war-torn countries. Your original argument however is that everyone should be able to move freely. There were migrants coming in from Africa well before the Syria/Iraq crisis, though most of those never ended up in Germany, but rather in Greece or Italy. > The case for germany to still provide financial support is that is a huge long term benefit that is tax beneficial,…

> You're special pleading for those fleeing from war-torn countries I wasnt talking about refugees at all until you mentioned it and i tried to answer. If you wish we can remove them altogether from the general case of immigration policy. > If you want to make an utilitarian argument Im not making a utilitarian argument, I'm explaining that the tax-cost can be a very cost-effective tax investment for the state, so it…

> I'm explaining that the tax-cost can be a very cost-effective tax investment for the state, so it can be sensible policy, regardless of ideology.

Not as cost-effective as simply picking the cherries from other countries. Plus, the risk is lower. That's my point. If you appeal to economics (or utility, whatever), follow through.

> Then don't..who is asking for that?

If we don't educate them or don't give them the means to do so, they have zero opportunity here, as opposed to slightly above zero.

> U.S. is a good example of shooting itself in the foot. Unles some special circumstances are allowed, no foreign software engineer can get hired in the US until Oct. 2018...

Which is exactly not my point. That is Trump's protectionism at work, not the idea that you pick the cherries from other countries (instead of letting them just flow in).

> "We should use force to not allow other people to move so I can have higher wages" -> how is this not oppression to you?

We're talking about people at the very bottom of pay, how much lower are their wages supposed to drop? I suppose that you believe in the magic of an idealized market, but in the real world there's real people there defending their interests. The same kind of people that will gladly elect populists, by the way. If you want to call that oppression, fine. What difference does it make?

> That you find a beggar unsightly is a problem to you, not the beggars problem,and you are welcome to try to fix it by donating.

The beggars problem is going to become the mob of people that will ask for them to be locked up and deported, in case they become too much of a nuisance.

Again, you're arguing too much like an idealist, which isn't really useful.

Re: If borders were open

#104

Post by mnm2 »

PeterisP wrote: post #59
pmarreck wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is also a finite, not infinite, number of people who would require social welfare for some periods of time. So...

If we spread out all the worldwide social welfare resources among all the people worldwide who would require social welfare, the average would be so far below the current levels of first world social welfare that it's basically the same as the system had been destroyed. It's not about finite vs infinite, it's about the notion that currently "the good social infrastructure" in the first world can cover a small portion…

> If we spread out all the worldwide social welfare resources among all the people

We need to do this, everything else is nationalism

Unf. I don't think your calculations sum up

And yes: It's called "costs of living" and you ignore it (to be higher in the west") and then you blame them (for your own wishful ignorance)

Where do you live?

Re: If borders were open

#105

Post by DrScump »

conanbatt wrote: post #63
0x4f3759df wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to mention the social welfare systems would collapse.

Milton friedman spoke 40 years ago of how people in america changed their views on immigration. In the 1800's and early 1900's, immigration was open and considered nowadays to be one of the great processes that got america to be what it is. Bring me the poor and the sick and all that. 60 years later, turns out immigrants are lazy welfarers. As MF says, the moment you put welfare, suddenly you end up wanting to restri…

  In the 1800's and early 1900's, immigration was open
Immigration to the USA was never "open". Entire races were periodically excluded (e.g. the Chinese Exclusion Act), and legal immigrants were subject to health checks.

Re: If borders were open

#106

Post by mnm2 »

Zahlmeister wrote: post #92
jayd16 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It means compared to previous crime statistic, ie, anyone who would have shown up in nationwide crime stats previously. By typical German they mean typical person living in Germany.

I'm sorry to break your bubble, but it's just not true. Let's take this apart: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/may/... Quote: "In other words, the typical German was more likely to engage in crime than the average migrant." Source: https://www.thelocal.de/20151113/police-refugees-commit-less... Headline: "Police: refugees commit less crime than Germans" Quote: "Interior Minsiter Thomas de Maiz…

How can so many people have and believe (and force upon others) such a twisted narrative?

Ofc "Bio-Deutsche" are very well-behaved and engage in typical Street-Crimes like you see in typical countries (e.g. Brasil) much less

You just go to work 1 day and you have 200€ more, no need to steal

How can so many people run around with such distorted narratives and force them down the throats of other people??

Re: If borders were open

#107

Post by DrScump »

jayd16 wrote: post #50
orbifold wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if you restrict yourself to young males then immigrants have a disproportionate share in crime at least in Germany, actually immigrants in Germany commited ~40% of all crimes in 2015, with a rapid increase in the last few years. It is also pretty obvious on the street level: drugs for example are primarily sold by immigrant gangs, for example africans with turkish bosses.

Where are you getting this? >According to the Bundeskriminalamt, also known as the Federal Criminal Police Office or BKA, crimes by immigrants rose 79 percent in 2015. But at the same time, the number of refugees in the country rose more than fivefold — by 440 percent. In other words, the typical German was more likely to engage in crime than the average migrant. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/201…

They're counting children (even infants) in the survey census while omitting crimes not committed by adults (let alone unprosecuted crimes).

Re: If borders were open

#108

Post by mnm2 »

Zahlmeister wrote: post #64
orbifold wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if you restrict yourself to young males then immigrants have a disproportionate share in crime at least in Germany, actually immigrants in Germany commited ~40% of all crimes in 2015, with a rapid increase in the last few years. It is also pretty obvious on the street level: drugs for example are primarily sold by immigrant gangs, for example africans with turkish bosses.

Counting in crimes like drug sales is misleading. Selling drugs is really just a business opportunity, albeit illegal. Native Germans tend to have much better opportunities and more to lose. To some degree the same is true for robbery/burglary as well. It's economic pressure and incentives that make these crimes attractive, these people aren't so much immigrants but rather crime tourists (some of them from EU countri…

You are not supporting the leftist agenda

All people are the same!

Please be silent now!

Differences do not exist

Actually,... differences would require that I think hard about them, won't you dare!

Re: If borders were open

#109

Post by concede_pluto »

ForHackernews wrote: post #8
pram wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These guys basically believe in magic soil, and that the inhabitants of "rich countries" are inherently interchangeable. The institutions just magically appeared separate from culture and demographics.

Institutions are mostly policies, procedures and process. What's the difference between a well-run company and poorly-run one? Would you rather work in a team of geniuses with no process, or a team of average developers who follow best practices?

"Don't hire the average developer" tops the list of best practices.

Re: If borders were open

#110

Post by mnm2 »

ForHackernews wrote: post #11
Kazamai wrote: post #5

This is only a good idea if we ignore that a billion people would migrate in a few months in an attempt to escape poverty. The results would be catastrophic.

FTA: > If the worry is that future migrants might not pay their way, why not charge them more for visas, or make them pay extra taxes, or restrict their access to welfare benefits? Such levies could also be used to regulate the flow of migrants, thus avoiding big, sudden surges

Yeah, make the poor pay more

That's the solution!

They depend on government handouts or other donations and making them pay more will solve the problem now

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