Live data from Hacker News

Raising a Truly Bilingual Child

nytimes.com

131–140 of 228 posts

Re: Raising a Truly Bilingual Child

#131

It's interesting that the article starts with the line "True bilingualism is a relatively rare thing". That's probably the case in the US or English-speaking world, but definitely not the case in many other areas. I live in Catalonia, it is very normal for locals to be fully fluent in Catalan and Spanish, I've seen the same in the Basque region. Go to India and almost every person you meet at all levels of society sp…

I was really taken aback by the first line. For context, I'm trilingual (used to be bilingual). I grew up near Boston. A quarter of the kids in my class were bilingual. I don't know how many had native proficiency in their non-English language, but I'm guessing most. So I thought maybe "true" bilingualism was some hard to attain thing that none of us had. Nope, it just means "native proficiency". AIUI that's a relati…

I think what the article meant by 'truly' bilingual was someone not only fluent in speech but with equivalent vocabulary, grammar etc in two languages.

I'd guess that the kids you knew growing up were speaking english in school and another language at home, so they likely don't develop the vocabulary and grammar in their 'home' language that they might have if they were studying it every day in school. From the article regarding kids from bilingual homes who speak english in school: "... they didn’t go to school in Spanish, they don’t read books in Spanish, and when you actually measure the size of their vocabularies, or the grammar they understand, or the coherence of the narrative they produce, they are not as proficient as they are in English".

Re: Raising a Truly Bilingual Child

#132
post #13

> “A child who is learning two languages will have a smaller vocabulary in each than a child who is only learning one; there are only so many hours in the day, and you’re either hearing English or Spanish,” Dr. Hoff said. That is rubbish. It depends on how the child is exposed to the various languages and how much exposure they get. My daughter speaks 3 languages at home (one to each adult). We were told exactly this…

Yeah there are lots of monolinguists with poor vocabularies. It's because they never read books, not because they've divided their vocabulary time in too many different language slices.

Re: Raising a Truly Bilingual Child

#133

>But if a child grows up speaking that second language — Korean, say — with cousins and grandparents, attending a “Saturday School” that emphasizes the language and the culture, listening to music and even reading books in that language, and visits Korea along the way, that child will end up with a much stronger sense of the language. Did this from Kindergarten through 10th grade. "Saturday School" was a full program…

Nice to hear from someone like you; my daughters are currently going along your same path with Japanese. Japanese is a second language to me, but our family has always been Japanese-only despite living in the states. It's honestly exhausting on all parties involved to try to commit to developing "true" bilingualism; my wife (Japanese) in particular seems to wonder if this level of commitment and effort is really nece…

I hope to write to you in more depth at a later date, but for now forgive me with just a short remark. If your children (like me in elementary school) only (want to) spend time with their Japanese school friends and not their American school friends after school and on weekends or fort birthday parties and whatnot, expect them to have some level of difficulty in the social microcosm of American elementary school (like I did). Obviously anecdotal, and not being in a tiny private school (50 students per grade) might help ameliorate things.

Re: Raising a Truly Bilingual Child

#134

>But if a child grows up speaking that second language — Korean, say — with cousins and grandparents, attending a “Saturday School” that emphasizes the language and the culture, listening to music and even reading books in that language, and visits Korea along the way, that child will end up with a much stronger sense of the language. Did this from Kindergarten through 10th grade. "Saturday School" was a full program…

Thanks for sharing. My kids are going through similar education, Saniku Gakuin twice a week after public school. While it's a bit intense in terms of homework and tough to balance with sports, but they find the work far less "meaningless" than the busy work they have to do in public school. My oldest is somewhat dyslexic, so he has a strong preference to reading japanese books--but I'm just happy to see him reading.…

What a coincidence, I attended Saniku from kindergarten to 3rd grade, many decades ago (then I switched to Saturday school which was less academically demanding).

I'm happy to hear that your children are enjoying the school. I think their Bible Study sessions before class helped me gain some Judao Christian cultural knowledge that serves me well to this day.

Re: Raising a Truly Bilingual Child

#135
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My parents are Chinese but I grew up in Canada. Consequently, I am fully fluent in English, but my Chinese is quite poor by comparison. I am "okay" by your standard, in that I can converse comfortably on day-to-day topics with native speakers, but my vocabulary falls apart with complex subjects. I am indeed fairly self-conscious of my "child-like" use of Chinese; on a recent visit, I was shocked that I could not read…

Regarding your Chinese, you will need to spend 10x effort than an ordinary Chinese kid. I can't imagine how it could be of use to your career, but once you grasp the language, there are so many interesting and subtle things to discover that you probably won't regret the time.

> you will need to spend 10x effort than an ordinary Chinese kid

I really don't think this is the case. An ordinary Chinese kid is learning Chinese 24x7 -- for decades. If you start learning a new language when you are an adult, the expectation seems to be that you'll be both fluent and proficient in a few years. There is a myth that children are able to do this.

It's just not true. Talk to a 5 year old. They have mediocre fluency, and very little proficiency. The average English speaking 5 year old only has a vocabulary of 5000 word families. Contrast that to the average high school student with over 15,000 and the average university graduate of over 20,000. Even by 10 years old, try plonking them down in front of the news and ask them to summarise what was said. Most 10 year olds can't do it, because they lack both vocabulary and grammar. Look at English text books for junior high school students. Note how basic the English is. And still many students struggle to comprehend (though by the time a child is 10, they have pretty amazing fluency because that's what they practice all day, every day).

I guarantee that you can vastly outperform a child in learning a second language if you spend comparable amounts of time and effort. I say this having taught English as a second language.

Now you may ask why, after years of study and frustration in classes that most students can produce no language. The main reason: if you don't review every day, you will hit a ceiling pretty fast. Students usually have class 1-3 times a week for 1-2 hours per class. This is literally useless. 5 minutes a day, every day, will give you dramatically better results.

The next biggest reason: teaching fluency is unpopular because historically many teachers never achieved any real fluency (and they inflict the poor teaching they received on the next generation). Also, fluency is virtually impossible to test objectively and takes a huge amount of teacher time to even evaluate. I worked it out one day. I was expected to work in classes where my opportunity for 2 way conversation in the class worked out to less than 30 seconds per student per hour. Pretty much guaranteed failure.

Next biggest reason: Students are told that 2000 words of vocabulary will make them fluent, and so limit themselves to this level (that is surpassed by 3 year old native speakers -- talk to a 3 year old and judge for yourself). Students also forget the frustration of being a child and not understanding what's going on. Children frequently burst out in tears and tantrum all over the place because they are so frustrated. We have this idea that the acquisition of our first language was effortless, and so wonder why we need to spend so much effort in the next language. Next time you talk to a child, question why they don't understand what you are saying. Very often the surprising answer is because they don't speak English very well!

And finally (finally for this already long email, not because I ran out of reasons): Adult speakers are unwilling to act like children. They are unwilling to put themselves in situations where they do not understand what's going on and where they have no control over their surroundings. They are unwilling to be silly, and to make mistakes and to interact with language resources that are aimed at their level (like cartoons). Again, watch a 4 year old. Copy them. (The same Spongebob episode 500 times in a row until you are repeating the lines to yourself as it is playing). It's not because it is harder as an adult. Just the opposite. As adults we are so used to having thing be so easy that we are reluctant to put in the effort of a 4 year old.

Re: Raising a Truly Bilingual Child

#136
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Adult bilinguals mix their languages all the time; it’s a sign of language ability I think I'll caveat that with "in the presence of other bilinguals". I am trilingual (formerly bilingual) and I, as well as people I share >1 languages with, freely switch when talking. It's quite liberating since you get access to idioms from multiple languages, and certain phrasings work out better. (There's also a lot more potenti…

I used to work with a Thai office manager, who'd speak bilingually on the phone to her parents. I noticed that she'd switch to English when the comment was about something negative. Not necessarily severe, but things like "oh, we have to wait until wednesday?". Maybe she switched to English for 'negative idioms'? Her Thai sounded light and bubbly, so the effect was magnified. I have no idea if she also said negative…

Interesting!

For me, French is the language I like to be negative in. It's not a language I'm native-level fluent in, but I'm at the level where I can carry out those mental self-conversations you have with yourself when thinking in French as well.

In french, negating a statement involves two words sandwiched around the verb (usually ne...pas, e.g. "il ne trouve pas"). I think for me this gives the negation a lot more "weight". It's hard to explain (and I'm not even sure if this is the explanation, it's more of a guess). But if I'm thinking a strongly negative statement I'll often think it in French.

There aren't that many things for which this happens for me, most kinda of thoughts get expressed in no particular one of the languages for me. But most strong negatives happen in French (and certain kinds of questions happen in my non-English native language).

I wonder if it's just a coincidence or something special about negative statements going on here.

Re: Raising a Truly Bilingual Child

#137

>But if a child grows up speaking that second language — Korean, say — with cousins and grandparents, attending a “Saturday School” that emphasizes the language and the culture, listening to music and even reading books in that language, and visits Korea along the way, that child will end up with a much stronger sense of the language. Did this from Kindergarten through 10th grade. "Saturday School" was a full program…

It's not obvious that speaking second language better will come out at the expense of English. I grew up bilingual and was at the top of my class for my second language compared to monolingual natives. There are whole countries of bilingual/trilingual people in Europe who speak their main language very well still. I think knowing a second (and later third) language gave me a better understanding of language structure…

To a first order, it's about how much time you invest into each skill. For me, a non Latin language didn't have noticeable spillover effects into English until much later in my life when I developed decently advanced linguistic proficiency in both languages.

This isn't to say I didn't do well in school -- I was at the top of my class in high school and went to the top ranked university in the country. Still, had I invested more time trading and writing English material during my childhood and adolescence, those skills would have developed much earlier.

And I agree with you about sports. I'm an advanced or white level athlete in 4 or 5 sorts, and it's very easy for me to become producer at a new sport, and I often notice body control, posture, focus, or valance related carryovers.

Re: Raising a Truly Bilingual Child

#138
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My parents are Chinese but I grew up in Canada. Consequently, I am fully fluent in English, but my Chinese is quite poor by comparison. I am "okay" by your standard, in that I can converse comfortably on day-to-day topics with native speakers, but my vocabulary falls apart with complex subjects. I am indeed fairly self-conscious of my "child-like" use of Chinese; on a recent visit, I was shocked that I could not read…

Regarding your Chinese, you will need to spend 10x effort than an ordinary Chinese kid. I can't imagine how it could be of use to your career, but once you grasp the language, there are so many interesting and subtle things to discover that you probably won't regret the time.

You don't necessarily need 10x effort (depending on your definition of "effort").

I'm a Hongkonger. I had lived in Montreal since I was 10 until I finished my bachelor's degree.

I didn't really do Saturday schools. I tried that for one or two years but those really had no effect on my proficiency in Chinese.

Yet, I can confidently say that I'm fluent in four languages, if you count Mandarin and Cantonese as separate languages.

What you really need is motivation and environment.

For me, I was motivated to become good in English and French because I found Québécoises girls really attractive, so I naturally paid attention in English and French classes. I also had the environment because I was introduced, by my cousin, to play with Québécois kids early on in elementary school. I simply did not stick with other Hongkonger kids.

I also liked Chinese literature like Romance of the Three Kingdoms and Jinyong's wuxia novels. So I just grabbed a Chinese dictionary and continued to learn Chinese on my own. I liked watching imperial court drama produced in Mainland China, so I watched a lot and learned my Mandarin accent that way. I don't regard that as "spending effort".

I still spoke Cantonese with my family so I got my mother tongue covered. Again, that's not effort.

Re: Raising a Truly Bilingual Child

#139

>But if a child grows up speaking that second language — Korean, say — with cousins and grandparents, attending a “Saturday School” that emphasizes the language and the culture, listening to music and even reading books in that language, and visits Korea along the way, that child will end up with a much stronger sense of the language. Did this from Kindergarten through 10th grade. "Saturday School" was a full program…

Frankly, I don't see why vocabulary should be a metric for language learning success beyond a certain threshold. I try to avoid big dumb words.

That threshold might be higher than you realize. I could read a Chinese news article reasonably well -- except for all the words that actually relate to the topic.

Each language essentially has a collection of mostly separate vocabularies that only apply in certain situations, but to avoid communication problems, you need to handle any situation you might encounter. If you have a somewhat diverse set of interests, that can be quite a lot.

Re: Raising a Truly Bilingual Child

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was really taken aback by the first line. For context, I'm trilingual (used to be bilingual). I grew up near Boston. A quarter of the kids in my class were bilingual. I don't know how many had native proficiency in their non-English language, but I'm guessing most. So I thought maybe "true" bilingualism was some hard to attain thing that none of us had. Nope, it just means "native proficiency". AIUI that's a relati…

I think what the article meant by 'truly' bilingual was someone not only fluent in speech but with equivalent vocabulary, grammar etc in two languages. I'd guess that the kids you knew growing up were speaking english in school and another language at home, so they likely don't develop the vocabulary and grammar in their 'home' language that they might have if they were studying it every day in school. From the artic…

Well, yeah, but the rest of the article doesn't seem to use that definition of "true" bilingual? Because it just talks about immersion with native speakers. Either the article didn't deliver as advertised -- had a hook about "true" bilingualism (whatever that is), and then went on to explain how to raise a "regular" bilingual child. Or the article really just meant "regular" bilingualism and wrong in stating that it is rare.

(Or perhaps I just have a very skewed sample set and even "regular" bilingualism is rare)

Idk. Overall this article didn't sit well with me, for more reason than one (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14830685).

Post reply on HN