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Japan Pictures Likely Show Melted Fukushima Fuel for First Time

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Re: Japan Pictures Likely Show Melted Fukushima Fuel for First Time

#101

Post by Fej »

oliv__ wrote: post #70
mikeash wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only reason fossil fuels don't have the same potential to go spectacularly bad is because humans don't consider enormous damage to be "spectacular" when it's spread out. Consider: coal alone kills about a million people a year. If those were all concentrated in a small area, we'd call it the greatest disaster the world has ever seen. But it's spread out over the whole world, so we just shrug our shoulders and say…

I don't think that's a fair comparison. To me (and I suspect to many others), the huge difference lies in the indelibility of the damages of nuclear power. Sure, coal might kill a million people a year, but the remnants of a nuclear incident will remain for thousands of years and affect hundreds of generations after that, in ways we don't even fully understand yet.

The remnants of the Chernobyl accident, far worse than any other, do not affect the surrounding area anymore. Pripyat could be built up again if there was any interest.

Re: Japan Pictures Likely Show Melted Fukushima Fuel for First Time

#102

Post by ori_b »

alphonsegaston wrote: post #80
ori_b wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keep in mind that the death toll from Fukushima was zero.

To the parent's point, this is entirely untrue. The yakuza colluded with the energy companies to round to their debtors and homeless people to clean up contamination. https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/05/ho... https://www.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSBRE9BT00520131230 The idea that they all escaped unscathed with no impact on their health or some weren't simply "offed" for being uncooperative is l…

Let me rephrase that: "Keep in mind that more people were killed by organized crime making a buck off the disaster, than by the disaster itself."

Re: Japan Pictures Likely Show Melted Fukushima Fuel for First Time

#103

Post by Fej »

jmhobbs wrote: post #98
Boothroid wrote: post #43

A common response from defenders of nuclear when concerns are raised is to point to the impact of other energy sources, and say that nuclear is better in those terms. But I just cannot get away from the thought that whilst in aggregate those other forms of energy (fossil fuels, etc) might be provably worse than well managed nuclear within a particular analysis, humanity does not seem capable of this good management o…

Underground coal fires like the Centralia mine fire are an interesting and not as well known problem as oil spills. > The fire is burning in underground coal mines at depths of up to 300 feet (90 m) over an 8-mile (13 km) stretch of 3,700 acres (15 km2). At its current rate, it could continue to burn for over 250 years.[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centralia_mine_fire

Is there no way to put it out? Starve it of oxygen? Tons of water?

Re: Japan Pictures Likely Show Melted Fukushima Fuel for First Time

#104

Post by justicezyx »

Boothroid wrote: post #43

A common response from defenders of nuclear when concerns are raised is to point to the impact of other energy sources, and say that nuclear is better in those terms. But I just cannot get away from the thought that whilst in aggregate those other forms of energy (fossil fuels, etc) might be provably worse than well managed nuclear within a particular analysis, humanity does not seem capable of this good management o…

You have to be aware that Japan government took a very unprofessional approach to this disaster.

Attributing the damage of this to general nuclear accident is inappropriate.

Re: Japan Pictures Likely Show Melted Fukushima Fuel for First Time

#105

Post by WalterBright »

mikeash wrote: post #64
Boothroid wrote: post #43

A common response from defenders of nuclear when concerns are raised is to point to the impact of other energy sources, and say that nuclear is better in those terms. But I just cannot get away from the thought that whilst in aggregate those other forms of energy (fossil fuels, etc) might be provably worse than well managed nuclear within a particular analysis, humanity does not seem capable of this good management o…

The only reason fossil fuels don't have the same potential to go spectacularly bad is because humans don't consider enormous damage to be "spectacular" when it's spread out. Consider: coal alone kills about a million people a year. If those were all concentrated in a small area, we'd call it the greatest disaster the world has ever seen. But it's spread out over the whole world, so we just shrug our shoulders and say…

All that shows is people are spectacularly bad at assessing risks. Many people, for example, are terrified that what happened in today's headline will happen to them. But the reason it is a headline is it is rare. The mundane deadly things that are very likely to happen to you are not reported in the paper.

Re: Japan Pictures Likely Show Melted Fukushima Fuel for First Time

#106

Post by CapTVK »

fludlight wrote: post #73
ori_b wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keep in mind that the death toll from Fukushima was zero.

There are other considerations than immediate direct deaths. From Wikipedia: > though there have been no fatalities linked to radiation due to the accident, the eventual number of cancer deaths, according to the linear no-threshold theory of radiation safety, that will be caused by the accident is expected to be around 130–640 people in the years and decades ahead...in the most contaminated areas faced a 70% higher r…

> ...are "technically incapable of blocking off groundwater with the frozen wall"...every day 300 tons of contaminated water leak from the crippled nuclear plant...

That article is out of date. The frozen wall has been working for quite a while but TEPCO wasn't (isn't) allowed to completely close it.

June 29, 2017

    Tepco applies to the NRA for permission to finish the Fukushima Daiichi ice wall. Closure of the wall has been throttled down by Tokyo’s Nuclear Regulation Authority due to fears concerning groundwater outside the turbine buildings falling below the level of water inside. Tepco has been forced to freeze the last half-dozen seven-meter-wide sections individually, wait to see what it does to external groundwater levels, and then proceed to the next section if groundwater level is maintained according to plan. One section on the inland side of the 1.5 kilometer ice structure is all that needs to be activated to complete the wall. To date, the sequential closure of Tokyo-mandated gaps has dropped the groundwater influx from 400 tons per day down to about 100 tons per day. No projections are being made as to how much more the in-flow will abate after the last part of the wall is frozen.
https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/20170627_01/

I would also like to give a pointer to the "Fukushima Accident Updates" blog-page at hiroshimasyndrome.com. It collects and summarizes a lot of Japanse news and updates concerning Fukishima and related on a regular basis that will never reach the mainstream/ international press.

http://www.hiroshimasyndrome.com/fukushima-accident-updates....

Re: Japan Pictures Likely Show Melted Fukushima Fuel for First Time

#108

Post by curtis »

afterburner wrote: post #85

"Decommissioning the reactors will cost 8 trillion yen ($72 billion), according to an estimate in December from the Ministry of Economy, Trade and Industry. Removing the fuel is one of the most important steps in a cleanup that may take as long as 40 years." Hmm, pricey.

This would be a problem if decommissioning costs for every nuclear reactor were 24 billion dollars (three reactors melted-down at Fukushima). However, decommissioning a reactor is a lot cheaper if it's done normally at the end of the reactor's operational lifetime, rather than done earlier after a melt down, which is a really extraordinary circumstance.

And remember that the Fukushima circumstances were pretty extraordinary indeed -- the reactor meltdowns were the consequence of a thousand year tsunami which directly killed nearly 20,000 people.

Re: Japan Pictures Likely Show Melted Fukushima Fuel for First Time

#109

Post by wbl »

Fej wrote: post #103
jmhobbs wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Underground coal fires like the Centralia mine fire are an interesting and not as well known problem as oil spills. > The fire is burning in underground coal mines at depths of up to 300 feet (90 m) over an 8-mile (13 km) stretch of 3,700 acres (15 km2). At its current rate, it could continue to burn for over 250 years.[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centralia_mine_fire

Is there no way to put it out? Starve it of oxygen? Tons of water?

The area is cracked enough you would never be able to fill the whole seam.

Re: Japan Pictures Likely Show Melted Fukushima Fuel for First Time

#110

Post by mikeash »

WalterBright wrote: post #105
mikeash wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only reason fossil fuels don't have the same potential to go spectacularly bad is because humans don't consider enormous damage to be "spectacular" when it's spread out. Consider: coal alone kills about a million people a year. If those were all concentrated in a small area, we'd call it the greatest disaster the world has ever seen. But it's spread out over the whole world, so we just shrug our shoulders and say…

All that shows is people are spectacularly bad at assessing risks. Many people, for example, are terrified that what happened in today's headline will happen to them. But the reason it is a headline is it is rare. The mundane deadly things that are very likely to happen to you are not reported in the paper.

The thing that always fascinates me is how people constantly bring up the long lifespan of nuclear waste, while ignoring the essentially infinite lifespan of many forms of toxic chemical pollution.

Tell people that the mercury that comes out of a coal plant will outlast the Earth itself, and you get a shrug. Tell them that nuclear waste will remain dangerous for 10,000 years and suddenly it's a Big Problem that needs Extraordinary Measures in order to Safeguard Future Civilizations.

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