As California’s labor shortage grows, farmers replace workers with robots • Hacker News Board

Re: As California’s labor shortage grows, farmers replace workers with robots

#161

Post by intopieces » Sat, Jul 22, 2017, 6:51 AM UTC

sumedh wrote: post #156

1024core wrote: post #146

> Stated bluntly, there aren’t enough new immigrants for the state’s nearly half-million farm labor jobs That's why we need a "farmworker" visa system, which lets workers come when required and go back as needed. Millions of people work on such visas all over the world; I don't see why it won't work in the US.

> go back as needed. The problem is, many people dont go back.

FTA:

>After decades of crackdowns, the net flow across the U.S.-Mexico border reversed in 2005, a trend that accelerated through 2014, according to a Pew Research Center study

Re: As California’s labor shortage grows, farmers replace workers with robots

#162

Post by sumedh » Sat, Jul 22, 2017, 7:02 AM UTC

intopieces wrote: post #161

sumedh wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> go back as needed. The problem is, many people dont go back.

FTA: >After decades of crackdowns, the net flow across the U.S.-Mexico border reversed in 2005, a trend that accelerated through 2014, according to a Pew Research Center study

I would not blindly trust that statement, Pew says it’s inherently impossible to track accurately when it comes to illegal immigration.

Re: As California’s labor shortage grows, farmers replace workers with robots

#163

Post by rjsw » Sat, Jul 22, 2017, 9:47 AM UTC

rgbrenner wrote: post #153

rjsw wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This basically requires the worker to be either homeless or that they can leave a house somewhere else empty while they are working on a farm. How does welfare in the US cover housing costs ?

They dont get welfare. Farms are heavily dependent on immigrants, mostly illegal immigrants from mexico (90% are foreign born) for crop workers. They work on our farms for very little pay (but probably more than they would have in mexico), work here for 10 years or so saving as much as possible, then go back to mexico. They may travel from CA > WA through the season; or on the east: FL > OH > ME (this prolongs their…

I realize that most farm workers up to now have been immigrants.

I was trying to find out how things would work if a legal worker alternated between working on farms and living on welfare somewhere out of any work season.

The UK is starting a similar shakeup, most seasonal agricultural work is done by workers from poorer countries in the EU who go back home once the work is done.

I feel that it will be hard to find the market rate for this kind of work in the short term.

Re: As California’s labor shortage grows, farmers replace workers with robots

#164

Post by Jabanga » Sat, Jul 22, 2017, 12:35 PM UTC

Torgo wrote: post #54

JustAnotherPat wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Picking fruit and vegetables has always been peasant and serf work. The market has never once said, 'you should be paid more,' because there always is an underclass and even if you paid triple what you pay now it'd be the same class of people working the job. The problem is every American thinks he's too good to be at the bottom of the barrel these days.

The underclass is economically coerced. People with options aren't rejecting it because of status, but because it is extremely unpleasant work.

Statements like this, that allege some group is being victimized, makes scapegoats out of those with more resources.

Yes we're all "economically coerced", by the need to produce economic resources in order to consume economic resources.

It's like Bastiat said 160 years ago:

"Man recoils from trouble - from suffering; and yet he is condemned by nature to the suffering of privation, if he does not take the trouble to work. He has to choose, then, between these two evils. What means can he adopt to avoid both? There remains now, and there will remain, only one way, which is, to enjoy the labor of others."

Re: As California’s labor shortage grows, farmers replace workers with robots

#165

Post by Jabanga » Sat, Jul 22, 2017, 12:45 PM UTC

mikehines wrote: post #116

Curious if California can incentivize farmers to train and hire capable homeless individuals to mitigate the labor shortage issue.

Theoretically yes. Practically, no. Homelessness in rich countries is largely a result of substance abuse and underlying personality disorders (which are often the reason the substance abuse starts).

Modern governments don't have the political will to break the social taboos necessary to instill discipline and personal responsibility in the homeless population, especially when there are large interest groups in the public sector who stand to lose financially from any serious effort to address the underlying causes of homelessness, especially if that effort rejects their ideological assumptions about the causes of homelessness.

Re: As California’s labor shortage grows, farmers replace workers with robots

#166

Post by scott00 » Sat, Jul 22, 2017, 2:37 PM UTC

coredog64 wrote: post #48

sol_remmy wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's already been shown in Seattle that raising minimum wage does not raise prices. Therefore paying these workers more should not raise prices. It might make them rise to middle class though :)

According to what I've read [0], the increase has led to more leisure time (and less money). I would expect the same in agriculture. [0] https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-06-26/seattle-s...

That study had some pretty serious flaws, most notably that it excluded workers employed by businesses with multiple locations.

Re: As California’s labor shortage grows, farmers replace workers with robots

#167

Post by 1024core » Sat, Jul 22, 2017, 3:46 PM UTC

sumedh wrote: post #156

1024core wrote: post #146

> Stated bluntly, there aren’t enough new immigrants for the state’s nearly half-million farm labor jobs That's why we need a "farmworker" visa system, which lets workers come when required and go back as needed. Millions of people work on such visas all over the world; I don't see why it won't work in the US.

> go back as needed. The problem is, many people dont go back.

Because they have no choice. It's so hard to cross the border, that once you're in, you have no choice but to stay in. They also bring their families in, because otherwise they would not see them.

Implement a farmworker visa that lets these workers go back and forth as needed, and suddenly they don't have to bring their families here; they can go back for events and festivals, maintaining a healthy social life. They can't be blackmailed by criminals, because they're here legally. You can even charge them a little bit for catastrophic health insurance.

Re: As California’s labor shortage grows, farmers replace workers with robots

#168

Post by rlanday » Sat, Jul 22, 2017, 3:51 PM UTC

hi1234567890 wrote: post #5

This would be a good time to implement regulations and taxes on all robots to diminish all margins gained from automation.

If I'm running a Burger King restaurant and a McDonald's opens up down the street, should McDonald's have to compensate me for my losses?

Re: As California’s labor shortage grows, farmers replace workers with robots

#169

Post by criddell » Sat, Jul 22, 2017, 3:53 PM UTC

rfrank wrote: post #157

criddell wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Displaced workers? We're talking about how difficult it is to find people to do this work. Anyway, having people do work that could be automated feels like another version of the broken window fallacy.

> We're talking about how difficult it is to find people to do this work. * in California. So farmers don't matter, just like other workers who lose their jobs to automation. Got it, thanks for the help.

> So farmers don't matter, just like other workers who lose their jobs to automation.

Nobody said that and I can't believe you would think anybody actually sees the world like that. I would hope that we can find more meaningful ways for people to spend their days than doing things that can be better accomplished via machinery. Otherwise we really are just paying one group to break windows so another group can be paid to fix them and that's not good for anybody.

Re: As California’s labor shortage grows, farmers replace workers with robots

#170

Post by rfrank » Sat, Jul 22, 2017, 4:07 PM UTC

criddell wrote: post #169

rfrank wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We're talking about how difficult it is to find people to do this work. * in California. So farmers don't matter, just like other workers who lose their jobs to automation. Got it, thanks for the help.

> So farmers don't matter, just like other workers who lose their jobs to automation. Nobody said that and I can't believe you would think anybody actually sees the world like that. I would hope that we can find more meaningful ways for people to spend their days than doing things that can be better accomplished via machinery. Otherwise we really are just paying one group to break windows so another group can be paid…

Automating people's jobs away without meaningful replacements is how regions get decimated, and you end up with very large swaths of very angry people without much to lose.