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Hanging S3 downloads

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Re: Hanging S3 downloads

#31

Post by StavrosK »

the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #24
Rjevski wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. What problem does NAT solve, other than allowing people to cut corners and not deploy IPv6?

> I disagree. What problem does NAT solve, other than allowing people to cut corners and not deploy IPv6? It by default ensures that machines inside a network are not reachable from the outside world. It gives you one address to the outside world which made IP blocks for abuse work quite well and enabled a lot of other users. Sure, it's a bit of a pain for UDP communication but given the common NAT behaviours not com…

So does a firewall, in a much less complicated way.

Re: Hanging S3 downloads

#32

Post by the_mitsuhiko »

StavrosK wrote: post #31
the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I disagree. What problem does NAT solve, other than allowing people to cut corners and not deploy IPv6? It by default ensures that machines inside a network are not reachable from the outside world. It gives you one address to the outside world which made IP blocks for abuse work quite well and enabled a lot of other users. Sure, it's a bit of a pain for UDP communication but given the common NAT behaviours not com…

So does a firewall, in a much less complicated way.

NATs are not terribly complex and most consumer grade firewalls are significantly worse than a simple NAT is.

Re: Hanging S3 downloads

#33

Post by matthewmacleod »

the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #25
growse wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main problem it causes is that it breaks the internet: not all peers are routable. It's difficult to think of a greater benefit that offsets that.

> not all peers are routable. For me that's a core feature of NAT, not something that breaks the internet.

I understand where you're coming from with that – but I can imagine a different Internet, where devices where by default globally routable but firewalled. That could even have affected the current trend towards 'stuff it all in my proprietary cloud system'.

Re: Hanging S3 downloads

#34

Post by Rjevski »

joshribakoff wrote: post #27
Rjevski wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this a troll or you are really blaming Amazon for a fault in a shitty router?

I had the same reaction. If I need to support users with shitty routers should I stay away from amazon? My users will just blame me not their router, or switch to my competition who is not using Amazon since it works. My users aren't going to read a long explanation of TCP/IP. Some users have no choice like a school or work firewall/router. If my website doesn't work and the competitions does what do you think happen…

Well S3 is popular enough (you don't realise it but a lot of sites use it under the hood for static assets, file uploads, etc) and this is the first time I've heard of this issue, so the number of routers so shitty that they break S3 (and only S3) would be pretty insignificant. There will be more routers that break the general web (no matter which site) than those only breaking S3.

Re: Hanging S3 downloads

#35

Post by growse »

the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #25
growse wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main problem it causes is that it breaks the internet: not all peers are routable. It's difficult to think of a greater benefit that offsets that.

> not all peers are routable. For me that's a core feature of NAT, not something that breaks the internet.

It breaks the internet because it breaks IP - the internet protocol. Segregating devices onto separate networks that are not routable to each other is something that reduces the overall functionality of the internet, not enhances it.

It doesn't help that it's a shitty hack which causes endless lost time either spent wondering why something is broken, or through designing entire protocols just to get around it.

Re: Hanging S3 downloads

#36

Post by deathanatos »

Huh. The Factorio community also ran into hanging downloads, and it also seemed to the devs to be caused by checksums[1][2].

I think they had much the same solution, mix a random number into the packet. (They use UDP, so they didn't have the benefit of TCP timestamps.)

[1]: https://www.factorio.com/blog/post/fff-176

[2]: https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comments/5rvkyp/friday_fac...

Re: Hanging S3 downloads

#37

Post by deathanatos »

matthewmacleod wrote: post #9
Rjevski wrote: post #3

Yet another problem caused by shitty consumer-grade network equipment.

I think you've maybe been unfairly downvoted there! Almost all of the issues I experience with Internet connectivity day-to-day are down to bad consumer networking equipment. APs start failing, or routers stop routing, seemingly at random.

For example: my router/AP/modem combo-box — which is the standard one that Comcast has been giving to all subscribers — when reset or power cycled, will forget the WiFi key. It just gets reset to the factory default. Every, single, time. And it's just they key: the SSID doesn't get reset. It's not the first modem I've had, either; its predecessor was the same make, had the exact same behavior.

I suspect it's because I'm using an actual key, instead of a passphrase, and nobody else does that. (Or, at least, not enough for Comcast to notice that the problem is them.)

The old one got returned b/c it was routinely dropping IPv6 packets. It took a while — multiple vists from multiple technicians — to convince Comcast that the symptom of "100% packet loss over IPv6, 0% packet loss over IPv4" was not a problem with the coax cable.

The predecessor of that modem got replaced when it had extreme difficulty forming IPv4 connections: almost all SYNs never got a SYN ACK, but in the rare case that they did, that connection proceeded with 0% packet loss. I highly suspect there was something going horridly wrong with its NAT processing, but that's a guess.

Re: Hanging S3 downloads

#38

Post by Rjevski »

deathanatos wrote: post #37
matthewmacleod wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you've maybe been unfairly downvoted there! Almost all of the issues I experience with Internet connectivity day-to-day are down to bad consumer networking equipment. APs start failing, or routers stop routing, seemingly at random.

For example: my router/AP/modem combo-box — which is the standard one that Comcast has been giving to all subscribers — when reset or power cycled, will forget the WiFi key. It just gets reset to the factory default. Every, single, time. And it's just they key: the SSID doesn't get reset. It's not the first modem I've had, either; its predecessor was the same make, had the exact same behavior. I suspect it's because…

The worst is that the Linux kernel (and any BSD) would be able to make a perfect router, but manufacturers insist on using their own shitty implementation. If they would've just used used the default Linux/BSD they would've been fine.

Re: Hanging S3 downloads

#39

Post by the_mitsuhiko »

growse wrote: post #35
the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> not all peers are routable. For me that's a core feature of NAT, not something that breaks the internet.

It breaks the internet because it breaks IP - the internet protocol . Segregating devices onto separate networks that are not routable to each other is something that reduces the overall functionality of the internet, not enhances it. It doesn't help that it's a shitty hack which causes endless lost time either spent wondering why something is broken, or through designing entire protocols just to get around it.

If you consider that "breaking" the internet then many thing break it. That seems like a weird argument to make.
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