As California’s labor shortage grows, farmers replace workers with robots • Hacker News Board

Re: As California’s labor shortage grows, farmers replace workers with robots

#91

Post by avs733 » Fri, Jul 21, 2017, 8:17 PM UTC

andrewla wrote: post #25

avs733 wrote: post #10

They could also, which is notably mentioned no where in the article, pay more? In a market driven economy...which companies want...employees have market power as well when their is a shortage.

> They could also, which is notably mentioned no where in the article, pay more? From the article: > And native-born Americans aren’t interested in the job, even at wages that have soared at higher than average rates. > Not surprisingly, wages for crop production have climbed 13% from 2010 to 2015 — a higher rate than the state average, according to a Los Angeles Times analysis of Labor Department data. > Growers who…

Fair enough...I missed that part somehow (I swear I actually read the article :) )

Re: As California’s labor shortage grows, farmers replace workers with robots

#92

Post by seanmcdirmid » Fri, Jul 21, 2017, 8:18 PM UTC

maxerickson wrote: post #82

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Robots for labor are coming, and when they do it is time to take agriculturally productive land away from the profiteers. They serve no rational function in the economy and are merely monopolizing a resource. This is one of the big questions we'll have to ask in the next 20 or so years, and it just isn't farms. We are going to have to deal with plenty of industries that will merely consume resources and produce wit…

A value added tax could raise revenue from robot farms and factories, there is no need to seize them.

I didn't agree with seizing them, just that we have to figure out what to do. A VAT could definitely help, but consumers will still need jobs to consume, and if they can't find any in production...well...can we live on doing services alone?

I don't know. Hopefully people smarter than me are thinking about this.

Re: As California’s labor shortage grows, farmers replace workers with robots

#93

Post by criddell » Fri, Jul 21, 2017, 8:21 PM UTC

xienze wrote: post #71

andrewla wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They could also, which is notably mentioned no where in the article, pay more? From the article: > And native-born Americans aren’t interested in the job, even at wages that have soared at higher than average rates. > Not surprisingly, wages for crop production have climbed 13% from 2010 to 2015 — a higher rate than the state average, according to a Los Angeles Times analysis of Labor Department data. > Growers who…

> And native-born Americans aren’t interested in the job, even at wages that have soared at higher than average rates. Conspicuously absent in every single article claiming that Americans "aren't interested" in farm work is exactly what constitutes "higher than average rates". You _will_ find Americans interested in this work at some rate, but it's going to be higher than what you think it "should" be. In a country w…

In another comment on this thread, a farmer said he couldn't hire people at $25 / hour. If a machine can do it, then a machine should do it. Especially work that's difficult and can be dangerous - like farm work.

Re: As California’s labor shortage grows, farmers replace workers with robots

#94

Post by icebraining » Fri, Jul 21, 2017, 8:23 PM UTC

adventured wrote: post #57

sol_remmy wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Seattle experiment would have to be repeated for higher levels of minimum wage. I would suggest a basic income instead though, then people won't have to pick fruit to survive :)

Paying the top 1/2 of earners a basic income is hyper regressive and inefficient (you have to turn around and tax it back from them). The current progressive income tax system paired with a higher income tax credit - instead of a counter productive higher minimum wage - is a vastly superior approach that has already been proven to work very well. BI is a fantasy at best. At worst, it'll wreck any economy that attempt…

inefficient (you have to turn around and tax it back from them).

Subtracting two lines is hyper inefficient?

Re: As California’s labor shortage grows, farmers replace workers with robots

#95

Post by rgbrenner » Fri, Jul 21, 2017, 8:24 PM UTC

avs733 wrote: post #10

They could also, which is notably mentioned no where in the article, pay more? In a market driven economy...which companies want...employees have market power as well when their is a shortage.

well you see... they pay near minimum wage for hard temporary labor that results in most of their workforce living below the poverty line. They've tried giving them a token wage increase, and it hasnt changed anything.. so clearly increasing wages doesnt work /s

For some reason they say they can't figure out.. people aren't jumping at the chance to live in poverty.

When they say they cant find people, and they're paying $7/hr or have increased it to $10/hr... it's a joke. They don't want to compete in the free market for labor.

Re: As California’s labor shortage grows, farmers replace workers with robots

#96

Post by walshemj » Fri, Jul 21, 2017, 8:28 PM UTC

bcoates wrote: post #46

aphextron wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that simple with farming, unfortunately. Worker pay is necessarily based on individual productivity, which can only increase so much [0]. Margins are razor thin for producers to begin with. The vast majority of profits are captured by the manufacturing and distribution. This is why the IRS taxes farm workers and farm employers differently from any other kind of commercial activity. http://nfwm.org/education-…

Why should farm work be immune to cost disease when nothing else is?

Political lobbying and in the USA's case the way the agricultural sates have representation far in excess of their population when compared to the metro areas

Re: As California’s labor shortage grows, farmers replace workers with robots

#97

Post by e12e » Fri, Jul 21, 2017, 8:50 PM UTC

PeterisP wrote: post #26

avs733 wrote: post #10

They could also, which is notably mentioned no where in the article, pay more? In a market driven economy...which companies want...employees have market power as well when their is a shortage.

The rising wages is notably mentioned in the article, and it is the implied reason for automation - the industry is not going to replace cheap workers with expensive workers, it's going to restructure everything (including the crop species it grows) to ensure that cheap workers are replaced with machines. If some industry is employing $10 million of labor and market wages go up 20%, the expected outcome is not spendi…

I'd say the math is off, but your ideas are sound. If you can reduce a 10M labor market to capital investment with zero yearly wages, it would probably make sense to spend 80M on robots that will cost 20M over ~10 years (or something similar). Point being, if you plan on being in business for a few decades, getting rid of labor costs (especially there might be a race to get rid of labor costs) is likely going to be essential.

Re: As California’s labor shortage grows, farmers replace workers with robots

#98

Post by HeyLaughingBoy » Fri, Jul 21, 2017, 9:00 PM UTC

protonfish wrote: post #80

irrational wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But, if the crop has started to rot on the vine because the machine is only doing 1/4 the work, then doesn't the cost become meaningless? Plants are different than metal. A robot building a car can go slow and the metal will still be the same.

Then get 4 machines.

And now you're back to the cost problem...

Re: As California’s labor shortage grows, farmers replace workers with robots

#99

Post by ptaipale » Fri, Jul 21, 2017, 9:07 PM UTC

minikites wrote: post #45

ams6110 wrote: post #19

Farms have been replacing people with technology for at least 200 years.

200? Try 6000: http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/plaintexthistories.asp?h... >From about 4000 BC oxen are harnessed and put to work. They drag sledges and, somewhat later, ploughs and wheeled wagons (an almost simultaneous innovation in the Middle East and in Europe). The plough immeasurably increases the crop of wheat or rice. The wagon enables it to be brought home from more distant fields.

Not sure why you'd be downvoted, but was about to post the same: the whole history of agriculture is about improving the technology.

One could add that development has been particularly rapid over the past 50 years or so.

Re: As California’s labor shortage grows, farmers replace workers with robots

#100

Post by rgbrenner » Fri, Jul 21, 2017, 9:10 PM UTC

criddell wrote: post #93

xienze wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And native-born Americans aren’t interested in the job, even at wages that have soared at higher than average rates. Conspicuously absent in every single article claiming that Americans "aren't interested" in farm work is exactly what constitutes "higher than average rates". You _will_ find Americans interested in this work at some rate, but it's going to be higher than what you think it "should" be. In a country w…

In another comment on this thread, a farmer said he couldn't hire people at $25 / hour. If a machine can do it, then a machine should do it. Especially work that's difficult and can be dangerous - like farm work.

Yes, but farm workers only work part of the year, and only work on each farm for a few weeks.. then move onto another farm.

So having 1 farm paying $25/hr, does not change much for the worker.. after they finish at that farm, they'll need to go to another that's paying near minimum wage (the average for a farm worker).. and the result is that they are still in poverty (the average farm worker lives below the poverty line).

The result is that no one is going to move from even a minimum wage job to farm work unless the pay is even higher and/or other farms get onboard with the higher wages.