Earlier quoted context omitted.
you skipped over III + I = IV, and VI+III = IX. Subtractive notation is confusing.
They mention this in the article, and say there is very little evidence of this being common in ancient Rome.
How Did Anyone Do Math in Roman Numerals?
101–110 of 163 posts
Re: How Did Anyone Do Math in Roman Numerals?
#102Earlier quoted context omitted.
...which is funny (the Asterix thing), because spoken French isn't exactly brilliant with numbers either: 99 for example is expressed as "eighty nineteen", 70 as "sixty ten". My friends lived in France a while and said their landlady could never count their rent (paid in cash) correctly first time. Always stumbled somewhere between 100x+60 and 100x+100 for integer values of x. The Swiss have corrected this in Swiss F…
Same thing with Belgian French, much to my dismay. I speak a language that does this as well (Georgian), where say 54 is ormotsdatotxmeti (two times twenty and fourteen.) I didn't find maths particularly different difficulty wise, when thinking about it in Georgian or not. What did trip me up, was the times! Up to x:29 it's 29 minutes past x, but at x:30 it is 30 minutes to ++x. Weird.
Most other European languages at least (I'm sure it's present elsewhere too, but I don't know enough non-European languages to say) have some remnants of more widespread counting in 12's or 20's or both (e.g. in English a "dozen" is 12, a "gross" is a dozen dozen (144), and a "score" is 20, hence "four score and seven years ago" in Lincolns Gettysburg Address - 87 years).
Re: How Did Anyone Do Math in Roman Numerals?
#103Earlier quoted context omitted.
About this particular case: why hasn't Euler's notation ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notation_for_differentiation#E... ) become the clear winner? I mean, its the only one that is both not confusing for beginners (because it doesn't trick them into the "cool, let's `simplify` the dx at the denominator with the next one" mindset) and it also translates easily to code (or other 1D encoding), like you can write "secon…
I think a lot of my confusions when I first learned calculus would have been eliminated with a notation that clearly expressed that derivatives operate on whole functions , not on values. So the derivative of f(x) at x=0 is not some function of f(0), but it is derivative(f)(x). Also, even without derivatives, sometimes the expression f(x) refers to the whole function, sometimes just a particular value of it at a spec…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_derivative#The_total_der...
By the way, most of that article is terrible, but the linear map definition is the one we want. There's also the directional (Gâteaux) derivative:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directional_derivative
Candidly, unless you really know your problem, we virtually always want the total derivative since it gives rise to things like gradients and Hessians, which are useful objects that we can store in memory.
Now, the reason that I bring these two up is that their spaces, or really their types, are different. Given a function f:X->Y, the total derivative is a linear operator from X to Y:
(total) f'(x) \in L(X,Y)
The directional derivative is an element in the space Y:
(dir) f'(x;dx) \in Y
Now, at this point, the notation is screwed up since we used Lagrange notation for both. The reason that we can get away with this is that under certain assumptions, that are mostly satisfied in the things we care about, we have that:
f'(x)dx = f'(x;dx)
Alright, so why should we care? Leibniz and Newton notation do a terrible job at capturing this information. Lagrange and Euler notation do a good job at this. For your example:
f(x0) = d/dx (sin(x)cos(x)+x^2) | x=x0
The types don't line up because sin(x)cos(x)+x^2 is value, literally a real number, not a function. Using the above, I would write this as:
(x \in R |-> sin(x)cos(x)+x^2)'(x0)
In LaTeX |-> would be \mapsto. This types correctly in the definitions above since
x \in R |-> sin(x)cos(x)+x^2 \in [R -> R]
and
(x \in R |-> sin(x)cos(x)+x^2)'(x0) \in L(R,R)
Of course, you probably wanted the value and not the function, which explains why we cheat in 1-D. So, we really should write:
(x \in R |-> sin(x)cos(x)+x^2)'(x0) 1 \in R
where we feed it the direction 1. And, yes, this is slightly more cumbersome that we may want, which is why there's a huge number of different notations. However, I do assert that the above generalizes properly all the way into infinite dimensions (Hilbert spaces) and provides a good foundation for typing out mathematical codes.
By the way, if anyone is looking for a book that does this right in my opinion, Rudin's "Principles of Mathematical Analysis" is amazing and his notation is good. For infinite dimensions, I prefer Zeidler's "Nonlinear Functional Analysis and Its Applications." Personally, what I look for is what I call properly typed notation that gives us easy access to useful tools like gradients, Taylor series, chain rule, and implicit and inverse function theorems. Again, most engineering and applied math work requires these theorems everywhere, so I find it best to keep them clean.
Re: How Did Anyone Do Math in Roman Numerals?
#104Earlier quoted context omitted.
You'd use the take-away method. XX - III = XVIIIII - III = XVII It's literally just addition in reverse. Instead of having reduction passes where you convert IIIII to V, etc., you'd have an expansion passes to convert V to IIIII.
Yes, that's what I said. But you chose a simple case. Try subtracting more complex numbers, specifically something more complex for the subtrahend. E,g, 42 - 13, which is XLII - XIII. Not only to you have to convert, but you have to convert both sides, and to either a similar format that can be subtracted, or to a lowest common format as suggested above (which is not roman numerals, BTW, so you need to know two syste…
Multiplication doesn't in general require an abacus if you're trained in roman numerals. Let's take your "more complicated numbers", 42 * 13.
Expand XLII * XIII = X * XLII + XLII + XLII + XLII, the first requires you to know a times table to see that it's CDXX, the rest you'd add mentally, LLL - XXX = CXX, so it's CDXX + CXXVI = DXLVI. Five hundred forty six.
Like, I'm not saying it's as clean as 42 * 13 = 420 + 126 = 546, it's not. But it's not educationally prohibitive either.
Re: How Did Anyone Do Math in Roman Numerals?
#105Earlier quoted context omitted.
I've noticed that I understand what is going on much more when a function is written in code than in its mathematical form. A lot of that is familiarity but I don't think all of it is.
Code's easy for me (unless "mathy" in appearance like Haskell) but mathematical notation's always made me feel dyslexic. I'd love to see this beauty or clarity or whatever that people find in mathematics, but I've never caught even a hint of it. Seems like it needs a good IDE to make up for deficiencies in its language.
That allows you to use Python inside a mathematical environment and it's amazing.
Saved my bacon a few times when I need to translate maths to code and I need to poke it a bit to get an understanding of how it works.
Re: How Did Anyone Do Math in Roman Numerals?
#106Earlier quoted context omitted.
Another excellent example of the power of good notation to aid understanding and increase efficiency is Dirac, or Bra-Ket notation[1] used in Quantum Mechanics. This allows you to do all sort of calculations with wave functions without constantly grinding to a halt bogged down by integrals and conjugates all over the place. The ladder operators (aka raising & lowering), really put this notation to good use[2]. It wou…
Would you say the same is true for Feynman diagrams in QED?
You could see this as an actively distinct concept (Feynman diagrams are graphs which give rise to some algebraic structure, whereas Dirac's notation is an algebra in itself) or you can see them both as just a means of abstracting away many operations (e.g. in Dirac's notation, this would be multiplication by operators and inner products, both of which are integrals in some sense, as just a non-commutative type of multiplication) in really powerful notation.
Re: How Did Anyone Do Math in Roman Numerals?
#107Since we have a lot of math experts here I thought I'd ask a question I was always wondering about: Is there an inherent advantage or disadvantage to using the decimal system as we do? Somehow I think octal or hexadecimal would be easier but I am not sure.
That would mean 1/2 doesn't have a finite expansion, but why would it? Most numbers don't.
Re: How Did Anyone Do Math in Roman Numerals?
#108Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think a lot of my confusions when I first learned calculus would have been eliminated with a notation that clearly expressed that derivatives operate on whole functions , not on values. So the derivative of f(x) at x=0 is not some function of f(0), but it is derivative(f)(x). Also, even without derivatives, sometimes the expression f(x) refers to the whole function, sometimes just a particular value of it at a spec…
I've noticed that I understand what is going on much more when a function is written in code than in its mathematical form. A lot of that is familiarity but I don't think all of it is.
Re: How Did Anyone Do Math in Roman Numerals?
#109Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'd go stronger than this and say that Leibniz's notation is actively harmful. It is very useful for quickly doing certain kinds of computations, but at the expense of conceptual understanding for students. Obviously, it's fine to use whatever computational aids you want when you understanding things, but most students are taught nothing but this fragile notation.
It's useful for solving (or partially solving for a set of conditions) linear differential equations, say in the fields of mechanics or electromagnetism. One can work with dx and dt as if they were just factors and move them around quite intuitively. In the same line, it's great at shining a light on the substitution rule for integration. Given that your point that it can be obscure at first remains valid, I'd walk t…
A good self-check is to see if you can convert from Leibniz notation to a more rigorous one at any given step in the computation and understand that step rigorously. Personally, I find that functional notation (using D as an operator on the space of functions, etc.) to be as simple to use and much more likely to alert me when I'm about to confuse myself.
Re: How Did Anyone Do Math in Roman Numerals?
#110Earlier quoted context omitted.
The equivalent to II + II = IIII isn't 2 + 2 = 4, it's 2 + 2 = 22. Simply jamming the symbols together gives you the right answer.
Right, much like I + V is IV. (There is more help; it's not as simple as people have been portraying, though...)