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Iron Yard code school to close all campuses
121–130 of 139 posts
Re: Iron Yard code school to close all campuses
#122Earlier quoted context omitted.
Well, market-rate pay would be a good starter. TIY was really close. It was almost a horizontal move for me. But there are a few other things that these kinds of institutions need to solve: - How to keep your staff from burning out - How to keep your staff up to speed Both are hard problems. TIY (at the time that I taught there, anyway) was staffed by people who had 10-15 years (and more in some cases) of industry ex…
That is a good idea. Even though the code that students get into in these bootcamps is the industry equivalent of "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star", and people keep saying that in various ways here to speak on why these junior devs can't get work, that doesn't mean that it will always be that way, nor does it mean that having industry experience would not be really helpful. More than that though, is that good teaching is…
and I get down voted for this? why? because you doubt that this has been the model in classical music? I know. I was there in conservatory myself. or is it that you doubt that the bootcamps could learn from this model? Offer something constructive to this discussion regarding the fact that these students are not getting work. Because I can tell you for a fact that every single graduate of the Juilliard School can sit in the New York Philharmonic and sound absolutely fantastic at it, and they could do that at age 18, on day one of their freshman year. At some point, as this field progresses, lots more 18 year olds will be skilled in software just like Juilliard pianists are at age 18- or rather just like many who don't even get into Juilliard are as well. Do we have to wait until then for the bootcamps to get hip about what great teaching is? I guess that is what I'm asking. It just seems like an obvious first pass solution for right now. Stop with the "industry experience" stuff, because your students aren't even skilled enough to play the equivalent of the Mozart-Kreisler Rondo. Not yet. Hopefully, with better teaching at all levels, they will be. Know what I mean? It just seems that many founders don't want to hear the truth about what isn't working. I know this because I have spoken with them. I get it. They are (not all, but many) young. They think hey- this is technology! It is all new! Everything is different! But still Stanford and MIT lead the way. Nothing new about excellence. Excellence will always win. Well, that and truly valuing great teaching (and knowing what that looks like to begin with). But most of them seem bent on finding students who would do well with or without their help. Do you think Dijkstra would be able to churn out junior devs who could get work? I sure do. And I'd pay him well for it.
And I might as well add that I've been studying this space, let's call it the "bootcamp space" since it began because of its potential similarity to places like Medowmount, Marlboro Music Festival, and Tanglewood. I've been to a (tier one! tippy top! woo hooo- I was "good enough" ha ha to "get in"- please, I should hope so- I'm breathing aren't I?) bootcamp myself to learn about the teaching there, and have also experienced the online learning modules offered at these places. I'm sorry but they are so far behind their analogues in other advanced fields of study that don't even use technology. I've known a few incredible teachers these schools regularly pass on who are considered too "old" to get a job in software engineering. (yeah, it's illegal to discriminate, but it happens all the time based on race, gender, sexual orientation, and even more instensely- strangely in this field on age ?!) or who are turned down for reasons like "not enough industry experience" as an excuse to turn down an "older" worker (read: over 30) when their current slate of teachers have only had the experience of working on various incarnations of omni-auth at a durian delivery service for six months out of Toledo. But yeah, Durain.ly. Industry experience. Ok. Let's please make these coding schools get real, shall we? I would have LOVED to have worked with some of the folks I've met with zero up-to-date industry experience over some of the hip, younger "teachers" (former graduates of said programs) I was paying to "learn" from.
Re: Iron Yard code school to close all campuses
#123Earlier quoted context omitted.
1. People who can effectively teach others to program well enough to secure professional employment may have better options than teaching open-enrollment entry-level programming classes. 2. Because of that, and for any of a number of other reasons, we may generally be overestimating how effectively these kinds of schools are educating people. 3. It's an open secret that hiring in the technology industry isn't based o…
Point 3 is overly pessimistic, but firing is a lot more difficult than not-hiring, so there's good reason to be careful.
That's not the whole explanation, IMO. If you had the same distribution of accepted candidates with both the loose and strict policies, I'd still expect interviewers to use the strict one.
Why? If their hire doesn't work out, they've got a much better story - "Our hiring processes are really strict and everyone got on board with it, it must've been something else that went wrong". And when the hire does work, people at the company get to self-congratulate about how "elite" they are.
The costs of extraneous interviewing and leaving positions unfilled is borne more by the company, while the costs of making a bad hire is borne more by the hiring manager, so the hiring manager makes choices that offload costs more onto the company. Principle-Agent problem.
Re: Iron Yard code school to close all campuses
#124The comments are pretty heart warming and show they definitely got something right.
I was an instructor there for 2 cohorts. It was probably the hardest I ever worked. The same was true for my fellow instructors. We were/are senior engineers who took the job for reasons other than money (it was a pay cut for me). We wanted to contribute back. A few students had pretty bad experiences, I think. It was a very demanding program. Several times, I had full-grown adults break down and cry during our 1:1s.…
Hey Chris, give me a call, this is your mother.
Ok not really your mother, since I doubt your mother's beard is as luxurious as my own, but we need a call to catch up.
Re: Iron Yard code school to close all campuses
#125Earlier quoted context omitted.
That is a good idea. Even though the code that students get into in these bootcamps is the industry equivalent of "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star", and people keep saying that in various ways here to speak on why these junior devs can't get work, that doesn't mean that it will always be that way, nor does it mean that having industry experience would not be really helpful. More than that though, is that good teaching is…
and I get down voted for this? why? because you doubt that this has been the model in classical music? I know. I was there in conservatory myself. or is it that you doubt that the bootcamps could learn from this model? Offer something constructive to this discussion regarding the fact that these students are not getting work. Because I can tell you for a fact that every single graduate of the Juilliard School can sit…
I think you got downvoted because you criticized bootcamps and basically claimed that they produce beginners. I dunno why, but people in these discussions tend to talk about skills in black and white - you are either awesome nearly genius or bad. Rarely somewhere in between and never on pro missing learning path. No one ever says that he is in the learning process now.
Interpreted from this point of view, you had put into camp of elitists who will write off any theoretically cheaper entry path to industry.
Re: Iron Yard code school to close all campuses
#126Earlier quoted context omitted.
Wrongful termination suits are something that all large companies have lots of scar tissue around though
Well that's because they have poor hr its not hard to fire a genuine NCI (non culpable incompetence) employee.
This is probably true. It's just been my experience that it is extremely hard to get managers to evaluate performance and reliably go through the long drawn out process of letting people know they are under performing, and then removing them.
Re: Iron Yard code school to close all campuses
#127Earlier quoted context omitted.
and I get down voted for this? why? because you doubt that this has been the model in classical music? I know. I was there in conservatory myself. or is it that you doubt that the bootcamps could learn from this model? Offer something constructive to this discussion regarding the fact that these students are not getting work. Because I can tell you for a fact that every single graduate of the Juilliard School can sit…
I think you got downvoted because you criticized bootcamps and basically claimed that they produce beginners. I dunno why, but people in these discussions tend to talk about skills in black and white - you are either awesome nearly genius or bad. Rarely somewhere in between and never on pro missing learning path. No one ever says that he is in the learning process now. Interpreted from this point of view, you had put…
Well, thank you, and let me clarify then. I absolutely think there should be a shorter cheaper path to entry. I just think it requires great teaching and some critical analysis that is honest about what it is getting wrong. I'm sick of the "be positive" model that is designed to keep people quiet while they are paying for stuff that won't really help them and they know it mid-class. And also-isn't 12 weeks of software development really just the beginning? If it isn't then why do so many senior devs with years under their belts know so much more than junior devs with 12 weeks under theirs? Nothing against beginning, in my view, we should all always be learning, and that definitely includes these camps.
Re: Iron Yard code school to close all campuses
#128Earlier quoted context omitted.
ChartSpan and eRad are 2 'startups' in the area growing relatively fast and blend tech and healthcare. Other than that it's a lot of smaller groups. Lot of automotive and Windstream, GE, Fluor, INFOR have strong dev presence here as well.
Don't forget Benefit Focus. They have office in Greenville and Charleston (HQ), have been growing like crazy and went public a couple years back. That company is doing really well and can't seem to hire people fast enough.
Benefit Focus from everyone I've known who has worked there pre-public said the company is absolutely terrible to work for from the engineering department perspective.
Re: Iron Yard code school to close all campuses
#129Earlier quoted context omitted.
Don't forget Benefit Focus. They have office in Greenville and Charleston (HQ), have been growing like crazy and went public a couple years back. That company is doing really well and can't seem to hire people fast enough.
Benefit Focus from everyone I've known who has worked there pre-public said the company is absolutely terrible to work for from the engineering department perspective.
I worked there for two years. Loved the people there, but the engineering definitely wasn't great. Imagine a Java application that started in 2000 and hasn't really had any significant rewrites and is now too big to change. They run a good business and offer a lot of value to companies who use their product, but the engineering was definitely tough in the not-so-fun way due to the sheer amount of legacy code.
Re: Iron Yard code school to close all campuses
#130Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think you got downvoted because you criticized bootcamps and basically claimed that they produce beginners. I dunno why, but people in these discussions tend to talk about skills in black and white - you are either awesome nearly genius or bad. Rarely somewhere in between and never on pro missing learning path. No one ever says that he is in the learning process now. Interpreted from this point of view, you had put…
Well, thank you, and let me clarify then. I absolutely think there should be a shorter cheaper path to entry. I just think it requires great teaching and some critical analysis that is honest about what it is getting wrong. I'm sick of the "be positive" model that is designed to keep people quiet while they are paying for stuff that won't really help them and they know it mid-class. And also-isn't 12 weeks of softwar…
see, the culture of positivity I spoke of exemplified right here on this forum- downvoting legit critiques while not engaging in any productive discussion about them. I could name names and bootcamps and specific examples, but I really don't think anyone wants me to do that. I think they all know exactly who they are, are hoping I do not, and I'm in turn hoping they will reflect on their choices. I'm also very much on the side of these students, all students of any ability, especially students saddled with debt without many financial options, and I'd prefer not to devalue any one's paid-for bootcamp before they secure the all-elusive junior dev role. I'm a student advocate. I believe in low barriers, shorter education, on-the-job-paid-training, corporate responsibility, and I believe in helping people get jobs, especially those in underserved groups.