Underground Hansa Market taken over and shut down • Hacker News Board

Re: Underground Hansa Market taken over and shut down

#351

Post by speleding » Fri, Jul 21, 2017, 2:05 PM UTC

wheelerwj wrote: post #349

averagewall wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a big discussion about what's bad about drugs. But I wonder if we can rationally work out what's bad about child porn. My understanding is that possessing it means you obtained it from someone, who probably wanted some kind of payment, who abused children to produce the material so he could get that payment. There are quite a few gaps there. What if it was published for free? What if children weren't physical…

bro.. don't try and make the abusers out to be victims. the dominant factor in stigmatized pea do philadelphia has very little to do with deviant sexuality and has everything to do with coercion and rape of still developing human beings. this is seen across just about every other facet of civilized society as well. We don't allow minors into enforceable contracts, leave home or check out of school, smoke cigarettes o…

The abusers are not the issue here, the parent is questioning whether possession should be illegal in all cases, especially if we are talking about a victimless crime. Photoshopped adult porn to make the actresses look young, for example. It's a good question. However, I expect that no politician is brave enough to ask the question for fear of getting precisely the criticism you just demonstrated. So the discussion will remain theoretical.

Re: Underground Hansa Market taken over and shut down

#352

Post by nthcolumn » Fri, Jul 21, 2017, 2:10 PM UTC

nthcolumn wrote: post #258

ikeboy wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Dutch police claiming to have de-anonimized Tor That uh, says the exact opposite of what you say it says

Ok ;)

fwiw and to spell it out for the hard of understanding they were trolling the users by saying have 'no' but we wouldn't tell you even if we had >WINK< (we did) and then present a PGP signature with 'proof' that they had - the sig is invalid btw and in any case could have been replayed. More recently I read that they allegedly waterholed a child abuse site in order to pwn one of the admins. So although none on Hansa they knew the admin was a disgusting piece of filth (or maybe by sheer luck?) Anyways - good work fellas.

Re: Underground Hansa Market taken over and shut down

#353

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jul 21, 2017, 2:21 PM UTC

averagewall wrote: post #296

atemerev wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not everything that is illegal is wrong. E.g. being gay is illegal in many places.

There's a big discussion about what's bad about drugs. But I wonder if we can rationally work out what's bad about child porn. My understanding is that possessing it means you obtained it from someone, who probably wanted some kind of payment, who abused children to produce the material so he could get that payment. There are quite a few gaps there. What if it was published for free? What if children weren't physical…

[deleted]

Re: Underground Hansa Market taken over and shut down

#354

Post by BearGoesChirp » Fri, Jul 21, 2017, 2:41 PM UTC

Garvey wrote: post #344

BearGoesChirp wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buying drugs does fund those actions. Drugs being illegal are a major reason why, and why I support legalization. But that doesn't excuse anyone currently making a purchase today. Think of it this way, illegal images could be produced by advanced CGI, but aren't because that tends to be just as illegal. That doesn't excuse anyone who consume images not produced by advanced CGI.

Buying "some drugs" from "some people", "might" fund those actions. Bit of a generalisation to apply it to every drug sale ever...

Doesn't this holds true of the other crimes we were talking about taking place on the dark-net as well? Maybe not at the same rates, but even weapon sells don't definitely mean someone is coming to harm by that specific sell.

Re: Underground Hansa Market taken over and shut down

#355

Post by BearGoesChirp » Fri, Jul 21, 2017, 2:44 PM UTC

averagewall wrote: post #296

atemerev wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not everything that is illegal is wrong. E.g. being gay is illegal in many places.

There's a big discussion about what's bad about drugs. But I wonder if we can rationally work out what's bad about child porn. My understanding is that possessing it means you obtained it from someone, who probably wanted some kind of payment, who abused children to produce the material so he could get that payment. There are quite a few gaps there. What if it was published for free? What if children weren't physical…

Go with an even easier case. What if it is of a 17 year old who is old enough to consent, even by the law where they live, who willingly takes the photograph and releases it. Technically illegal, but why?

Re: Underground Hansa Market taken over and shut down

#356

Post by msla » Fri, Jul 21, 2017, 3:16 PM UTC

gorkonsine wrote: post #262

msla wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But until that happens, don't buy from big drug sellers. In a broader sense: We can acknowledge that there's an underlying problem, and how to fix it, while at the same time being willing to advocate a temporary fix until the underlying problem actually is fixed. Think of it like polyfill: The underlying problem is that old browsers exist, but we can't boil the ocean and make everyone upgrade, so we use polyfills to…

These laws don't usually get changed until people violate them en masse, showing utter disrespect and contempt for the laws. Remember Prohibition? That wasn't lifted because people wrote to their Congresspeople, but otherwise respected the law and followed it. It was lifted because it was widely disrespected, and a huge black market for alcohol was created, along with a lot of brutal violence. Same goes for civil rig…

Until those laws get changed, the money from buying drugs from the big cartels funds real crimes.

Changing the laws is the long-term solution.

Not buying drugs from big cartels is the short-term one.

Re: Underground Hansa Market taken over and shut down

#357

Post by msla » Fri, Jul 21, 2017, 3:16 PM UTC

valuearb wrote: post #318

Retra wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can be held responsible. You don't have a right to obtain a substance just because you want it. It doesn't matter if it "goes in your body" or not. That's not how rights work. You have to justify the value to society.

It's exactly how rights work. Freedom of speech doesn't have to justify it's value to society, it's an innate right that's not up for vote. Google the founding fathers and natural law.

There isn't a country on Earth run on "natural law" or anything close to it.

Re: Underground Hansa Market taken over and shut down

#358

Post by gorkonsine » Fri, Jul 21, 2017, 3:38 PM UTC

7952 wrote: post #315

gorkonsine wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's still plenty of conservative people who believe the being gay is a personal choice, or perhaps something caused by your upbringing/environment, not something you're born with. Of course, this has as much veracity as the idea that the Earth is flat or that the Sun and planets revolve around it, but there's a lot of people who believe it.

But the whole argument is ridiculous. Maybe there is a choice element to being gay. So what? That is a perfectly valid choice to make. But attacking someone for that is not valid, it is completely perverse. It seems to me that the purpose of the "born with it" argument is to develop empathy among people who lack understanding. Because it helps explain why people act on their feelings, even if they are not a good idea…

I agree that it's a valid choice to make, and people should have the freedom to make such choices if they want. However, you said before that "It makes no difference to anyone if homosexuality is innate, or just a set of chosen behaviours." and that's incorrect. It does make a difference, to some people. To those people, they'd oppose it if it were proven to simply be a choice, whereas they'd have more empathy if it were proven to be completely innate: it'd like being mad at a mentally-retarded person for doing something dumb, compared to being mad at or disappointed in a very intelligent person for making a very dumb decision. I'm not defending this mentality (because again, I have no problem with homosexuality and I think people should be free to have whatever physical relationships they want), but I'm explaining it.

Also, remember that a lot of people (particularly religious ones) want to regulate social behavior, even in the bedroom, because they believe this is important for society's survival and prosperity. So in their view, homosexuals should be oppressed (either strongly by the state, or more weakly by social pressure) for the good of society, and to keep their behavior from "spreading". There's not really a way to counter this mentality by people like us because their worldview is so entirely alien to us: we don't believe in divine retribution for "immoral" behavior (a la Sodom & Gomorrah) and they do, and nothing's going to shake their belief.

Re: Underground Hansa Market taken over and shut down

#359

Post by gorkonsine » Fri, Jul 21, 2017, 3:40 PM UTC

msla wrote: post #356

gorkonsine wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These laws don't usually get changed until people violate them en masse, showing utter disrespect and contempt for the laws. Remember Prohibition? That wasn't lifted because people wrote to their Congresspeople, but otherwise respected the law and followed it. It was lifted because it was widely disrespected, and a huge black market for alcohol was created, along with a lot of brutal violence. Same goes for civil rig…

Until those laws get changed, the money from buying drugs from the big cartels funds real crimes. Changing the laws is the long-term solution. Not buying drugs from big cartels is the short-term one.

Paying your taxes funds real crimes too. Should I stop paying taxes?

According to you, the people in the Underground Railroad were doing the wrong thing, and should have followed the prevailing laws on slavery, and it was wrong for slaves to rebel, even when they were being brutalized and murdered. Your position is disgusting and repugnant.

Re: Underground Hansa Market taken over and shut down

#360

Post by armitron » Fri, Jul 21, 2017, 3:44 PM UTC

Analemma_ wrote: post #170

nfbush wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every time a market has been taken down it's been due to OPSEC failure and other information leaks (e.g. Silk Road captcha IP leak, DPR's advertising of market being linked to his personal email address). AlphaBay Which got taken down first in this operation was due to a personal email being included in the header of the welcome email sent out to new users 3 years ago [1] [1] https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release…

> Every time a market has been taken down it's been due to OPSEC failure and other information leaks ( This is true, but it dangerously misses the point. Every time someone gets taken down, the know-it-alls on various fora sneer and go "Ha! What terrible opsec! I wouldn't have made that mistake!" No, you would've made some other mistake. To run a darknet market and not get caught, your opsec has to be perfect . Every…

This is a very superficial way to look at things, and ultimately, entirely wrong.

One of the cornerstones of OPSEC is persona creation & management. This is orders of magnitude easier to perform in cyberspace than in real life, and can be used as a catch-all safety -- for exactly when mistakes are made and layers are compromised --.

You will make many many mistakes, but part of a well-implemented OPSEC strategy, is to have those mistakes land in a compartment, an illusionary persona that you created out of thin air. Operation size has nothing to do with it and should be completely irrelevant when the compartmentation strategy used is solid.