A hacker stole $31M of Ether – how it happened, and what it means for Ethereum
221–230 of 440 posts
Re: A hacker stole $31M of Ether – how it happened, and what it means for Ethereum
#222Earlier quoted context omitted.
Your Whig history of an ever progressing political system is not accurate in my opinion. I've written this comment before, and I'll repeat it as it's relevant to your comment: Societies have gradually grown more unfair as the political system has strained under their growing complexity. According to political scientists, the average voter has an extremely limited understanding of what their government is doing. The t…
Societies have gradually grown more unfair as the political system has strained under their growing complexity. Is this not a revisionist view of history? Modern republics are pretty new things. There were serfs (and absolute autocracy) in Russia as of 1860, slaves in the US until the 1860s, voting tied to gender until the 1920s, colonial empires without fair representation until 1950, laws against interracial and ho…
>laws against interracial and homosexual marriage until the 1980s and 2014 respectively, state-sponsored inquisitions and pogroms until recently, etc.
Laws against interracial marriage in the US were struck down by the Supreme Court in 1967. There are no laws against homosexual marriage. Such marriages are simply not legally recognized in some jurisdictions. With anti-miscegenation laws, entering into such marriages was actually a felony. But to your point, there were laws against homosexual activity up until the 1960s, which have been repealed.
On the other hand, new laws have been created that force individuals to pay for the costs of other people's personal choices. If a person engages in rampant promiscuity for instance, and contracts a sexually transmitted disease, others are forced, at pain of imprisonment, to pay the costs of their medical care.
Just as laws prohibiting homosexuality were once popular, laws mandating that individuals pay the costs of others' medical care are very popular today. Popularity is not a measure of justice.
Occupational licensing is another area that has grown increasingly unjust. In 1950, only 5 percent of occupations required a license. Today it's over 25 percent. The growing restrictions on economic participation have harmed millions of people and exacerbated income inequality. [1]
Government spending meanwhile is increasingly creating a set of haves and have-nots. The majority of the wealthiest counties in the US are now suburbs of Washington DC. [2] The average Congressperson in the US makes well over ten times more once they become a lobbyist than they did while they were in office. [3] The pay gap between federal employees and workers in general continues to increase. [4]
The power of public servants continues to increase thanks to unionization and collective bargaining, resulting in this class of workers extracting more economic rent, while the quality of the public services suffers. [5]
And then we have privacy rights. The Snowden revelations showed us that society has never before been subject to such extensive surveillance of its private activities and interactions. This is an extreme systemic danger, and very likely has numerous malignant effects that are unknown, e.g. contributes to the centralisation of economic power, as a result of the information asymmetry it creates.
[1] https://www.brookings.edu/research/make-elites-compete-why-t...
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest-income_countie...
[3] https://www.thenation.com/article/when-congressman-becomes-l...
[4] https://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/tbb-06...
[5] https://academic.oup.com/qje/article-abstract/111/3/671/1839...
Re: A hacker stole $31M of Ether – how it happened, and what it means for Ethereum
#223Earlier quoted context omitted.
Once code is developed that proves to be bug free, it can be used over and over with no bugs! Doesn't seem to quite work like that in real life.
quicksort? cat? ls? I mean some of these things have bugs still, but generally when you have something of fixed scope then there are less bugs over time. Especially if you're restricting your scope to something simple
Re: A hacker stole $31M of Ether – how it happened, and what it means for Ethereum
#224Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes, but this reductive view isn't useful. It's happening, whether we know how to do it or not. The important question is how to proceed.
Proceeding by ignoring the inherent difficulties is certainly an option... In fact, that is how we got to the current situation.
The people who proceed anyway stand to benefit handsomely if they don't screw it up. So the game is simply: don't screw up.
It's hard, to be sure. But to say it's impossible is to overstate the issue. And even if it is impossible, it doesn't mean it will end in disaster 100% of the time.
Re: A hacker stole $31M of Ether – how it happened, and what it means for Ethereum
#225Earlier quoted context omitted.
> something is very wrong with your system To be clear, neither of the two situations is "more moral" than the other. In the end however, the question remains: who you trust. Governments have resolved the question long ago (by enforcing trust), cryptocurrencies are just now starting to face the same question. You are correct however that who you Trust remains the greatest issue behind creating a currency.
I think that is a bit too simplistic a view, and the better question is: when things go wrong, what is your fallback? Modern governments provide an elaborate system of fallbacks: checks and balances, a justice system with multiple levels of appeals. Those may be complex and fallible, but they are at least reasonably good at dealing with unexpected problems. When a smart contract goes wrong, there are no fallbacks.
Sure there is. As the DAO hack showed us, if you can get enough of the network to agree to it, you can literally rewrite history and create an alternate universe where the contract never went wrong.
Re: A hacker stole $31M of Ether – how it happened, and what it means for Ethereum
#226Earlier quoted context omitted.
Look, no. One hundred times, no. Governments in the west are quite accountable, voted for and with a system of checks and balances that has evolved over time, through wars and revolutions. Some random benevolents overlords (white-hat hackers) that save you just because they are magnanimous was the only option only in the most primive societies. Thankfully we moved on from those times, don't you agree?
Your Whig history of an ever progressing political system is not accurate in my opinion. I've written this comment before, and I'll repeat it as it's relevant to your comment: Societies have gradually grown more unfair as the political system has strained under their growing complexity. According to political scientists, the average voter has an extremely limited understanding of what their government is doing. The t…
As this point you've already lost everyone who doesn't already ready the same pamphlets you read and agree. Either because they have read those pamphlets and eye-roll, or because they haven't and figure you're a rambling extremist. It's literally equivalent to communists beginning propaganda pieces with "Attention all Comrades!"
That said, I disagree with you, so feel free to keep talking this way.
> ever progressing political system
Literally no one claims politics is monotonically improving. Unless Clinton has been singing Trump's praises recently, you're attacking a straw-man.
> the average voter has an extremely limited understanding of what their government is doing
Appealing to this fact in a thread about cryptocurrency is beyond ironic.
Seriously, even most early adopters don't understand what their crypto currency is doing. And certainly don't have any hope of understanding even a mildly complex contract. Code comprehension is difficult for trained software engineers!.
All of the serious proposals in this thread call for some sort of formal verification, which even most trained software engineers aren't currently capable of using.
And hell, if we learned anything form this, it's that even the ostensible experts don't have an air-tight understanding!
So, what? Instead of teaching every citizen how to read and interpret legislation and regulation, we'll just train them all as professional software engineers with formal methods expertise?!?! And even that's no silver bullet. Contracts can and will grow just as complex as e.g., current tax law. Because the underlying humans won't have changed!
In the long run, you're merely adding complexity. Now I have to understand software and also tax policy. Things get strictly worse.
> This opens the door to manipulation by demagogues and special interests
As opposed to manipulation by "whichever guy finds a bug in the cryptocurrency". You can argue that these are equivalently bad things (I'd disagree), but you'll be hard-pressed to convince most rational folks that "rando dude" is better. Stick to the devils you know and all that.
> limits the Kafkaesque tendencies of collective society.
I'll end my comment in the same way I started it: you're preaching to the choir.
Besides which, what're you going to do when it turns out the majority of people still don't agree with you about how society should be, and still control all the guns and natural resources? Because that's what will happen.
Political power will flow from the arrangement of bits only when the arrangement of bits determines who controls overwhelming military force. And not a moment before.
Re: A hacker stole $31M of Ether – how it happened, and what it means for Ethereum
#227Earlier quoted context omitted.
Proceeding by ignoring the inherent difficulties is certainly an option... In fact, that is how we got to the current situation.
The thing is, everyone knows it's difficult. It's not new information. The people who proceed anyway stand to benefit handsomely if they don't screw it up. So the game is simply: don't screw up. It's hard, to be sure. But to say it's impossible is to overstate the issue. And even if it is impossible, it doesn't mean it will end in disaster 100% of the time.
Actually, a lot of people seem to be in denial over just how difficult it is, and what those difficulties are.
> So the game is simply: don't screw up.
If only the people who lost a combined $31M had followed this simple advice! Then everything would have been fine.
> And even if it is impossible, it doesn't mean it will end in disaster 100% of the time.
It does not have to end in disaster 100% of the time for people to lose faith. Losing This is just talking around the issue. There is a currently-unsolved problem here, and if you have a solution, it would be helpful if you were to share it.
Re: A hacker stole $31M of Ether – how it happened, and what it means for Ethereum
#228Earlier quoted context omitted.
You really just simply do not get it. Just like the law can not define Pi to be 3 the law should not be able to influence the outcome of a smart contract if smart contracts work at all because that is how it is intended to work, smart contracts are supposed to be the entirety of the agreement, no outside interpretation should make a difference nor could it make a difference. This is where the Ethereum crowd has - in…
Whether or not you (or anyone else) think the law should influence the outcome of smart contracts...it certainly does. So far a few states (US) have passed laws regarding "blockchains", "smart contracts" and the like. For example, seeking to avoid any legal uncertainty surrounding blockchain transactions and smart contracts relating to certain digital assets, Arizona passed HB 2417, the following on point: - A very s…
I never thought a legal definition would be clearer than every "common" definition I have read. It's like the author of every blog post I've seen titled "What is Ethereum?" has no idea what title they used.
I guess that just shows how hype makes it hard to get to the truth.
Re: A hacker stole $31M of Ether – how it happened, and what it means for Ethereum
#229I have to expect that some bug like this has surely happened with a traditional bank too, causing them to lose a bunch of money. Humans inevitably write buggy software regardless of the platform. The difference with blockchain-based currencies is that their failures are forced to happen in public. I'd be interested to know what banks do when they discover that something doesn't add up in their ledger. I can't believe…
Far from perfect (fake ID, assumes the issue is spotted promptly, etc.) but better in this case.
Re: A hacker stole $31M of Ether – how it happened, and what it means for Ethereum
#230Earlier quoted context omitted.
Is formal verification of contracts feasible? Is anyone working on it? Also, here's a possibly crazy idea: could one create bug bounties for algorithms (or even arbitrary software) on the Ethereum blockchain by writing the algorithm into a contract such that if you somehow break it you receive the bounty? An example of this would be the massive implicit bounty currently placed on the crypto algorithms (SHA256, ECDSA/…
There's already an implicit bug bounty. Whoever found this bug got a bounty of millions. Much better than the presence that tech companies pay.
Cryptocurrencies are serving as bug bounties for their crypto primitives, but that only benefits other users of those primitives.