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Scientists Reverse Brain Damage in Drowned Toddler?

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Re: Scientists Reverse Brain Damage in Drowned Toddler?

#281
post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The arguer's credibility has no bearing on the truth value of purely logical arguments that can be fully evaluated within the four corners of the argument. Very few scientific assertions fit that rubric. In the ordinary case where a conclusion is at some pointed predicated on an unknown fact, then the credibility of the speaker absolutely matters.

Saying that a person's credibility decides the truth value of the statement requires a causal relationship. To say otherwise is to posit a mechanism via which one's opinions somehow shape reality itself. So it seems to me that our notions of 'fact' might not be aligned? I understand evaluating someone's credibility as a proxy when I have no means of investigating something. I do not understand it when we are talking…

If you aren't the one attempting falsifying it, then you still have to trust somebody based on their credentials.

Re: Scientists Reverse Brain Damage in Drowned Toddler?

#282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't speak intelligently to your questions, because I have no relevant first-hand experience or knowledge of CPR literature. My only point regarding > The average rule is that if heart has not restarted after 6 minutes, brain damage is irreversible is that it doesn't mean it's worthless to continue CPR. Different people have different preferences about how grievous an injury they would want to survive. Whether to…

A friend of mine had her heart restarted at age 40 after 20 minutes of resus by the excellent London Ambulance Service. Intensive Care then applied a cooling apparatus to drop brain temperature. My friend was in a coma for 6 weeks and had brain damage because of the lack of oxygen. On one hand, this was distressing because she lost mathematical ability. This prevented her working in her previous field as a chemistry…

What's her opinion on the whole cost of survival question ? worth it ?

Re: Scientists Reverse Brain Damage in Drowned Toddler?

#283
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you both for taking the time to create accounts and respond. Both of these responses are amazing, and it's lurkers/posters like you that make this site great. One question: some of your responses attack only the credibility of the speaker (OP's 1st, 4th and your 4th, 5th points). Is this typical in scientific discourse? They seem to detract from your analysis to me.

Haha. This is an incredibly polite reply, sharpened to a very fine point. I'm grateful I have something to contribute to a site that I've gotten an incredible amount out of. And it's a powerful reminder that very very smart people can have a hard time critically appraising medical claims. As powerful as the internet is, medicine is really complicated, and it's easy for doctors to forget that. I'll let the surgeon spe…

I personally prefer propublica's Dollars For Docs data visualization and search features of the open payments dataset, it seems more fluid. However, it does not have the recent update for 2017 that open payments has.

As a medical student I appreciate you all commenting here, it also helps those of us with a general understanding put things into perspective.

https://projects.propublica.org/docdollars/

Re: Scientists Reverse Brain Damage in Drowned Toddler?

#284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does his neurologist recommend it?

His neurologist is pretty old school.

yet she/he is still a human being, and (i hope!) cares about your son. being "old school" means that she/he was trained in a certain way, but it doesn't mean that they have been brain-washed or is incapable of seeing success with unconventional treatments (look at CBD / cannabidiol, which is unconventional but is in the process of being adopted by these same "old school" doctors).

we wish it were otherwise, but: if your son had a brain injury where cells died, no amount of oxygen is going to bring them back (or even help his recovery).

i'm sorry for your son's circumstances (and yours...). But you are a victim twice when you invest time, energy, money, and hope in these quack therapies (I'm sorry to call them that, because it seems so pejorative, but that's what they are).

i don't know what it is about quack treatments that make us so susceptible to them... I think it's a missing piece of the Kubler Ross model of grief. Just like our parents who fall victims to ridiculous "nigerian prince" or "check cashing" scams when you can't understand how... it's not because they are dumb, or stupid, but because there is some aspect of human psychology (hope? denial? grief? whatever...) that puts us all at risk of fooling ourselves... we become unable to see the truth, because of how powerfully we want to see something else.

i hope this possibility makes sense to you, because your son will benefit a thousand times more from your attention than if you take the same attention and spend it fighting against "the system" (in whatever form it takes). and take comfort in the fact that even though "the system" really sucks in terms of its limitations, that it does, in general, stumble toward progress, and the future will be better than the present.

Until then... cherish your son and enjoy your time with him to the best of your mutual abilities.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%BCbler-Ross_model

Re: Scientists Reverse Brain Damage in Drowned Toddler?

#285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I second that. HN is good for that reason and also the lack of half page ads on another popular website SD.

Sorry, SD? The acronym is not clicking, would like to make sure I'm not missing a site with benefits similar to HN, even if it requires viewing a few half page ads. Thanks,

Sorry - yes Slashdot. It is awful nowadays, but I started there. Somebody should tell them.

Re: Scientists Reverse Brain Damage in Drowned Toddler?

#286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Attacking the arguer's credibility isn't fallacious if their argument depends in any way on their credibility, as it clearly does in this Newsweek story.

I'm not familiar with that exception in logical thinking. What argument is logically dependent on someone's credibility?

Other people have made good replies, but this is also a pet peeve of mine, so I'm going to jump in as well.

Another way to think about it is as witness testimony.

When you do a logical, mathematical proof, you are building on a well-defined and well-known set of axioms, using well-defined steps of logical inference. With a few well-known exceptions, we don't argue over mathematical proofs. Either the logic flows from the axioms or it doesn't.

Once you step away from pure mathematics, you no longer have a small number of well-defined axioms or clear inference. Instead you have a lot of what amounts to witness testimony. Sometimes, you recount an observation. "X drowned and was dead for 15 minutes." "X had brain damage." "X fully recovered." It is reasonable to dispute these statements based on the credibility of the person making them.

Some of these statements may be the product of inference, which is also less clear than logical inference. For instance, "X has brain damage." might have been inferred from "An MRI of X looked like Y." and "Y indicates severe brain damage." Now you have a host of ways where the statement could be wrong, based on the reliability of the person making the observation and the inference. Did the person actually take an MRI, or were they lying about it, or did they misread it, or did they actually rely on a third-party who did one or the other? Is the inference method "Y indicates severe brain damage" valid? Did the person in question correctly apply it?

People don't like to attack the credibility of others; it seems mean and it can easily slip into elitism. But examining the credibility of someone presenting evidence is absolutely critical to truth-finding. Personal integrity is an absolute necessity, in science, medicine, and law.

Re: Scientists Reverse Brain Damage in Drowned Toddler?

#287
post #38

What frustrates me is that in the United States, most insurance companies won't pay for hyperbaric oxygen treatment for traumatic brain injuries. My son, 26, was injured in a car accident last November. I would love to be able to get Oxygen therapy for him, but cannot.

This isn't an insurance issue, it's a science one...

> Neuro-rehabilitation

> As of 2012 there is insufficient evidence to support using hyperbaric oxygen therapy to treat people who have traumatic brain injuries.[51] In stroke, HBOT does not show benefit.[52][45] HBOT in multiple sclerosis has not shown benefit and routine use is not recommended.[44][53]

> A 2007 review of HBOT in cerebral palsy found no difference compared to the control group.[54][55] Neuropsychological tests also showed no difference between HBOT and room air and based on caregiver report, those who received room air had significantly better mobility and social functioning.[54][55] Children receiving HBOT were reported to experience seizures and the need for tympanostomy tubes to equalize ear pressure, though the incidence was not clear.[54]

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Hyperbaric_medicine

Re: Scientists Reverse Brain Damage in Drowned Toddler?

#288
post #93
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what's nice with a single payer health system. The same cost center has to either pay for disability related costs, or pay for treatments that would potentially end the disability related costs. It's a sane investment by the government here in Canada to make such choices. On the other hand, if your health insurance is through one system and your disability insurance through another, you have everyone optimizi…

Does Canada pay for hyperbaric oxygen therapy?

For treating brain damage? No. Because no doctor would sign off on that as a treatment. There's no scientific evidence that oxygen therapy helps with brain damage.

Like most "alternative" medicines this one gets pushed hard as a solution for everything, regardless of evidence.

Re: Scientists Reverse Brain Damage in Drowned Toddler?

#289
post #126

Can anyone knowledgeable about medicine explain this article further? For example, I'm wondering why they waited 55 days to give normobaric oxygen therapy. Wouldn't it be given immediately for a patient with brain injury?

Most likely the 55 day wait happened because the parents sought out alternative treatments afterwards. As it is very unlikely the original doctors suggested this treatment... there is no supporting evidence that HBOT helps with traumatic brain injury. Also as other's have pointed out in this thread, HBOT is an industry full of quackery with grand claims of curing cancer, treating brain injury, and cerebral palsy with little evidence.

So most likely the parents approached a university research group, or a research group was referred to them, and they did the study with the child at a later date following the initial treatment of the injury.

Re: Scientists Reverse Brain Damage in Drowned Toddler?

#290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have to separate the points here. "Hope" is a real, tangible thing, crucial in our lives, and provably effective. The question is do we need to accept quackery to have it? Is that sometimes the only way? I suspect the answer is, rarely. There is so much legit and exciting work being done w.r.t. TBIs that it seems we should not have to rely on it in this area. But that's a guess. Until you've walked in someone's sh…

Well, this is the basis for religion. I am an atheist, scientist (physics) and I used to actively discourage people from religion (which is pure quackery). This until I realized that religion helps people who do not want to otherwise think about the world around them. One of the people I managed to move away from religion and change his beliefs ended up deeply depressive. Another one was deeply unhappy with the chang…

    I profoundly belive that people who do science must be atheists
That is simply false. Just look at the history of science - just a few examples being Francis Bacon, Robert Boyle, Newton, Kepler, Leibniz, Euler, Faraday, Maxwell, etc. who were all Christian. A far greater proportion of scientists are religious than one might think (see http://www.pewforum.org/2009/11/05/scientists-and-belief/).
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