Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Peek Behind Bret Victor's Lab at YC HARC

limn.it

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 86 posts

Re: Peek Behind Bret Victor's Lab at YC HARC

#21

Post by rl3 »

laxatives wrote: post #17
dang wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nearly-exact is definitely not exact. To my ear 'heterodox' connotes difference and pluralism while 'unorthodox' is more of a negation. (Of course other mileages may vary.) But different words always exist for a reason—if they didn't, one would have fallen out of use. Pretentiousness is not enough to keep a word alive!

The word aside, he's not wrong. That article is filled with flowery non-sense, making long prosaic paragraphs from thin-air. I like reading long articles, but this doesn't contribute much.

I respectfully disagree. The article made considerable effort to evade techno-solutionist fantasies.

Re: Peek Behind Bret Victor's Lab at YC HARC

#23

Post by jarmitage »

On the "don't let the prototype out of the lab too early" theme, it would be interesting to read an alternative history novel about a world where the Mother of All Demos never happened. And Von Neumann never spoke about his architecture. Etc.

What are some good examples of prototypes or even mediums in the sense discussed here that were "let out" at "just the right time" or "too late"?

Re: Peek Behind Bret Victor's Lab at YC HARC

#24

Post by amasad »

I support this and find it really cool. However, I'd love to see less hero worship and more evidence. On its face there is nothing wrong with all those Alan Kay photos, but my feeling is that it's symptomatic of how much of what's being pursued rests on appeal to authority and/or nostalgia.

To make this more concrete. Consider one of their projects (http://harc.ycr.org/project/), the Block-based programming: what's the evidence that this is a superior way for learning programming? What's the evidence that so-called computational thinking enhances cognitive ability or is transferrable to day-to-day thinking?

Furthermore, much of their computer-based education ideas are based on Seymour Papert's research and ideas which in turn was based on Piaget's theories on mental development. Those theories, however, have been thoroughly challenged and is all but outdated.

EDIT: this was the top comment and actively upvoted, now it seems that the mods have placed it at the end just before comments with negative points. I had heard of YC's sensitivity towards any criticism but this seems extreme. Whats the point discussions without criticism.

Re: Peek Behind Bret Victor's Lab at YC HARC

#25

Post by jarmitage »

amasad wrote: post #24

I support this and find it really cool. However, I'd love to see less hero worship and more evidence. On its face there is nothing wrong with all those Alan Kay photos, but my feeling is that it's symptomatic of how much of what's being pursued rests on appeal to authority and/or nostalgia. To make this more concrete. Consider one of their projects ( http://harc.ycr.org/project/ ), the Block-based programming: what's…

Got links for crits of Papert / Piaget and modern alternatives? Constructivism at least appears to be live and kicking in the MIT Media Lab hype world

Edit: also on computational thinking, I'm not sure that's what people are arguing for http://worrydream.com/MeanwhileAtCodeOrg/

Re: Peek Behind Bret Victor's Lab at YC HARC

#26

Post by justin66 »

wtvanhest wrote: post #16
dang wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nearly-exact is definitely not exact. To my ear 'heterodox' connotes difference and pluralism while 'unorthodox' is more of a negation. (Of course other mileages may vary.) But different words always exist for a reason—if they didn't, one would have fallen out of use. Pretentiousness is not enough to keep a word alive!

At risk of sounding foolish... I even read yours/his comments, and I am still confused. I am fairly confident that I have never seen the word heterodox used before.

That's because it means exactly the same thing as "unorthodox" and almost everyone simply says that. Hence the discussion - you aren't alone.

Re: Peek Behind Bret Victor's Lab at YC HARC

#27

Post by justin66 »

dang wrote: post #11
sushisource wrote: post #6

Not a comment on the content of the article, but I find it pretty obnoxious when an author uses a word like "hereodox" which has a much more commonly known nearly-exact synonym "unorthodox". It's hard to imagine any reason for that beyond "look at how clever of a writer I am".

Nearly-exact is definitely not exact. To my ear 'heterodox' connotes difference and pluralism while 'unorthodox' is more of a negation. (Of course other mileages may vary.) But different words always exist for a reason—if they didn't, one would have fallen out of use. Pretentiousness is not enough to keep a word alive!

I wonder if you can offer a pair of online dictionary definitions that illustrates what you see as the difference in meaning between the two words. (I bet you can't)

Re: Peek Behind Bret Victor's Lab at YC HARC

#28

Post by [deleted] »

justin66 wrote: post #26
wtvanhest wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At risk of sounding foolish... I even read yours/his comments, and I am still confused. I am fairly confident that I have never seen the word heterodox used before.

That's because it means exactly the same thing as "unorthodox" and almost everyone simply says that. Hence the discussion - you aren't alone.

[deleted]

Re: Peek Behind Bret Victor's Lab at YC HARC

#29

Post by throeaweigh »

sushisource wrote: post #6

Not a comment on the content of the article, but I find it pretty obnoxious when an author uses a word like "hereodox" which has a much more commonly known nearly-exact synonym "unorthodox". It's hard to imagine any reason for that beyond "look at how clever of a writer I am".

i got to know Götz and spoke to him about his time 'in the field' at HARC

you can look at your complaint from at least two perspectives

first, he is german and english is a second, or possibly third or fourth, language

as the saying goes 'there's a perfect german word for that', but in this case Götz was able to find the perfect word in a second language

second, one of his favourite revelations from his time at HARC was the inhabitants', and i argued many 'creators', nearly obsessive, nearly detrimental, preoccupation with 'naming things'

every new idea, every new prototype, every new function, every new variable needs a name and Götz would watch as the team labored over 'what to call it'

a practice that fascinated Götz and when he recalled it to the room and those of us who had been there confirmed the same preoccupations he erupted in glee

so to call out Götz for naming something exactly as it was meant to be conveyed i think would engender in him a pride of assimilating this ritual

Post reply on HN