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Outsourcing Doesn't Work

codeanthem.com

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Re: Outsourcing Doesn't Work

#11

Post by DjDarkman »

Well the funny fact is people outsource their project to me, after a previous("overseas") developer failed.

The article isn't bad, my problem is that in the beginning it is too damn general. Yes there are a lot of fails, but there are also successes.

My points are: - in house developers can fail just as well - outsourcing can be done right, and can be almost bullet proof - management is what really kills these types of projects

If the management is fit for the task, it can make outsourcing work.

Re: Outsourcing Doesn't Work

#12

Post by ratsbane »

jeb wrote: post #4

Outsourcing works, else it would not still exist.

The word "work" can mean different things to different people. In this case it may mean "enables c-level management to cut expenses and show short-term profits so they can sell the company."

I think it hardly ever works in the sense of "makes for better and more cost-efficient information systems in the long term."

Over the years I've worked on several expensive IT contracts whose purpose was to bring failed outsourcing projects back in-house.

Re: Outsourcing Doesn't Work

#13

Post by klochner »

paulreiners wrote: post #9
jeb wrote: post #4

Outsourcing works, else it would not still exist.

That's like saying, "the market is always right; if it seems like it sometimes isn't, trust me, it is."

You're simultaneously misrepresenting jeb's statement and the efficient market hypothesis[1].

It's more like saying "markets aren't always right, but they're useful, otherwise they wouldn't exist".

The efficient market hypothesis says "the market may be wrong sometimes, but you can't consistently tell when".

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efficient-market_hypothesis

Re: Outsourcing Doesn't Work

#14

Post by wdewind »

gte910h wrote: post #10

1> Vast difference between domestic and overseas outsourcing. Domestic outsourcing gets rid of a lot of his beefs. 2> You're not paying the developers to develop software, you're paying them to go away afterwards (so you don't have to keep paying them a salary). The big savings don't come from the hourly rate, but instead the fact they're not employees. You get this same benefit domestically. Disclosure: I run a dome…

It's a girl ("I am the daughter and granddaughter of immigrants (Indonesian/Chinese on one side and Russian on the other side)").

1) The problem with domestic outsourcing is you frequently come up against the issue of "I wont need to support this in a month so fuck it I'll just finish it the quick hacky way now." For small site projects like wordpress blogs this may be acceptable, but for actual software I still can't imagine a situation where outsourcing is cheaper, which is why most respected software companies don't do it.

2) Which is a huge issue. The concept that you WANT them to go away afterwards (again, with the exception of something like a wordpress blog) both disincentivizes them to produce high quality, lasting code and also means you lose your support for their code base.

I'm not saying this is how your company operates, I'm sure you have great programmers who deliver good products. But I've yet to see the scenario everyone dreams of: We pay a lower price long term and end up with a great maintainable codebase that we can easily pass off to other developers and we never have deal with the outsourcers again. Just never happens.

Re: Outsourcing Doesn't Work

#15

Post by gaius »

gte910h wrote: post #10

1> Vast difference between domestic and overseas outsourcing. Domestic outsourcing gets rid of a lot of his beefs. 2> You're not paying the developers to develop software, you're paying them to go away afterwards (so you don't have to keep paying them a salary). The big savings don't come from the hourly rate, but instead the fact they're not employees. You get this same benefit domestically. Disclosure: I run a dome…

No, you're really paying your developers to build domain/business knowledge and familiarity with the codebase. Then when you need a bug fixed or a new feature, it's a snap. You're also paying them so the competition can't hire them. Remember the value of any company engaged in IP is not in the stuff it owns and not even in the stuff it's already done: it's in its ability as an organization to identify and solve new and commercially relevant problems. The value of such an organization is quite literally in the heads of its people. Without those people what is it? A brand?

Contractors, no matter how individually talented they are, can't do any of this. You can outsource payroll and catering; you can't outsource IP creation and survive.

Re: Outsourcing Doesn't Work

#16

Post by mavelikara »

plinkplonk wrote: post #8

"Outsourcing doesn't work" is as extreme as "Outsourcing always works and is the cool thing to do". Like many other things there are successes and failures, but I guess that doesn't make for a very sensational blog entry or discussion.

She admits as much in the post: "The title of this post isn’t exactly true. Outsourcing (the way everyone does it) does not work (where work is defined as save tons of money and produce quality software)."

Re: Outsourcing Doesn't Work

#17

Post by hapless »

wdewind wrote: post #14
gte910h wrote: post #10

1> Vast difference between domestic and overseas outsourcing. Domestic outsourcing gets rid of a lot of his beefs. 2> You're not paying the developers to develop software, you're paying them to go away afterwards (so you don't have to keep paying them a salary). The big savings don't come from the hourly rate, but instead the fact they're not employees. You get this same benefit domestically. Disclosure: I run a dome…

It's a girl ("I am the daughter and granddaughter of immigrants (Indonesian/Chinese on one side and Russian on the other side)"). 1) The problem with domestic outsourcing is you frequently come up against the issue of "I wont need to support this in a month so fuck it I'll just finish it the quick hacky way now." For small site projects like wordpress blogs this may be acceptable, but for actual software I still can'…

The domestic firms to which you outsource typically don't want #1 to happen. They want to build a long-term relationship and hold your repeat business. They want to become such experts on your software that it's not cost effective for you to pay their competitors to work on it.

The way they can stay less expensive than in-house development is simple. They can use time division multiplexing to put an entire team of workers on your project. Each worker may have six or seven customers he works on across the year, six or seven codebases with which he is intimately familiar.

You may have the budget for one developer on salary, full-time. Instead of hiring that one guy to alternate between overwork and sitting on his ass, you could pay an entire team of people for three months of work every couple years. Additionally, you get the skills and experience of that entire team. You're not limited to what one contributor is comfortable with.

Re: Outsourcing Doesn't Work

#18

Post by petervandijck »

IgorPartola wrote: post #5

I wonder if a kind of TDD system could work. As in I write a test case and a function prototype, then send it off to a Mechanical Turk type community. Someone picks it up, fills in the details, sends it back. Obviously wouldn't work for some of the more complex parts of the project, but it would save me time from having to build the almost trivial parts.

You can still get crudgy code with TDD.

Re: Outsourcing Doesn't Work

#19

Post by IgorPartola »

petervandijck wrote: post #18
IgorPartola wrote: post #5

I wonder if a kind of TDD system could work. As in I write a test case and a function prototype, then send it off to a Mechanical Turk type community. Someone picks it up, fills in the details, sends it back. Obviously wouldn't work for some of the more complex parts of the project, but it would save me time from having to build the almost trivial parts.

You can still get crudgy code with TDD.

Yes, but I might not care. If I ask for a function that takes a particular data structure and writes it to a particular file format, as long as it's not in my hot loop, I don't care how badly it's implemented (assuming it works on all my edge cases). On the other hand I might want to make sure it's maintainable or fast enough, in which case I might just write it myself.

Re: Outsourcing Doesn't Work

#20

Post by zavulon »

I would've changed the article name to "Outsourcing to India doesn't work". I fully agree with that, and can share many more horror stories.

However - domestic outsourcing (such as to the company that I run ;)) does work. We use TDD, source countrol, iterations, product roadmaps, daily standups, code reviews, continuous build integration, and all the good stuff.

Also, all the good domestic outsourcing companies approach the projects with a "let's build a long-term relationship" mentality. Why wouldn't we? It's much more profitable and less of a hassle to do a good job and keep getting repeat business from the same customer than to do a crappy job and keep spending budget on marketing to attract new ones.

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