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Scientists Reverse Brain Damage in Drowned Toddler?

newsweek.com

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Re: Scientists Reverse Brain Damage in Drowned Toddler?

#201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Attacking the arguer's credibility isn't fallacious if their argument depends in any way on their credibility, as it clearly does in this Newsweek story.

I'm not familiar with that exception in logical thinking. What argument is logically dependent on someone's credibility?

Argument from authority. A said X, A is an authority on X, Therefore, X is true.

This is a valid inductive argument. It is valid when A is an actual authority, when they are speaking truthfully, etc. It doesn't guarantee the truth of the conclusion but it is a fine argument. How do you know Booth shot Lincoln? You read it in a textbook, the textbook is written by someone who is an authority on history or that part f history, etc. It isn't deductive (like a proof in geometry or logic) but it is a good argument. Many logic books call argument from authority invalid and what they mean is that it isn't deductively valid but it is an inductively valid argument form (If it were always invalid, we would be quite mired in ignorance).

Re: Scientists Reverse Brain Damage in Drowned Toddler?

#202

Disclaimer: I am a neurologist The enthusiastic replies on this thread are understandable, but disappointing to see: we all need to be less credulous regarding the lay science press, and especially the lay medical press. I would love nothing more than to have this kind of therapy be a reality for my patients. However, I am deeply skeptical of this report. Why? Because - hyperbaric oxygen therapy has a big industry of…

"The enthusiastic replies on this thread are understandable, but disappointing to see: we all need to be less credulous regarding the lay science press, and especially the lay medical press."

So fucking what? I suffered a moderate (GCS 8) TBI 6 years ago and it has been the most impactful thing to ever happen in my life, more so than even the births of my children. This article is a small glimmer of hope in an otherwise depressing and difficult subject.

I am beyond glad people such as yourself exist in this world, are skeptical, and do the hard work of helping people and making lives better. But please remember that us lay people need these bits of hope and glimmers of light. I don't particularly care about the science, as a parent and TBI patient I'm simply glad she's ok. This article made me tear up.

Re: Scientists Reverse Brain Damage in Drowned Toddler?

#203
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a neurosurgeon, and am also skeptical. Here are some thoughts after looking at the actual paper in Med Gas Research. First, after looking at the MRI, I see more evidence of cerebral edema than of infarction. The MRI sequence that would show the actual infarction, DWI is presented, but as a 3d volume(which I have never seen done before with DWI) and does not show the thalami where most of the FLAIR hyperintensity…

Thank you both for taking the time to create accounts and respond. Both of these responses are amazing, and it's lurkers/posters like you that make this site great. One question: some of your responses attack only the credibility of the speaker (OP's 1st, 4th and your 4th, 5th points). Is this typical in scientific discourse? They seem to detract from your analysis to me.

Haha. This is an incredibly polite reply, sharpened to a very fine point.

I'm grateful I have something to contribute to a site that I've gotten an incredible amount out of. And it's a powerful reminder that very very smart people can have a hard time critically appraising medical claims. As powerful as the internet is, medicine is really complicated, and it's easy for doctors to forget that.

I'll let the surgeon speak for him/herself, but for my part: I am raising the issue of industry size and quackery to give other readers context. It doesn't make the article wrong necessarily, but I would want to have that context as a non-expert reader trying to understand how it fits into the larger body of scientific understanding. And I would say yes, that does happen (and is appropriate to have happen) in scientific discourse.

On a related note: one amazing site that isn't well known is the OpenPayments[1], maintained by the US government. If you live in the US and have doctor, you can see how much compensation they received from industrial sources. Some of the numbers are shocking. Put your own doctor in, and see where they are. There is no need to resort to conspiracy claims when you can audit them, to some degree, yourself.

The physician mentioned in the article, Dr. Paul Harch, has received $74.48. So way to go Dr. Harch! we can worry much less about getting a skewed opinion based on a industry payments.

But weighing against that is his CV, which lists publications with "D Amen", who I suspect is Daniel Amen - an overly-credulous hyperbaric oxygen physician who has his own page on quackwatch[2], and subscribes to medical theories that are even less credible than the ones in newsweek. When Mehmet Oz[3] is an endorsement on your web site (Amen; not Harch), the public is justified in putting you in the same category. Farther down the CV is "Department of Defense trials for hyperbaric oxygen and TBI: issues of study design and questionable conclusions", wherein I'm predicting he single-handedly dismantles a large federal study of whether HBO is useful for traumatic brain injury. Feel free to find the original article and independently appraise it, if you think it's worth your time... I can barely find 10 minutes to pay back a favor to a good-natured community that has taught me a lot about computers and programming.

Finally: let's not lose sight of the incredibly good thing that happened for this child. Regardless of how or what or why, this is an exceptional outcome, and it's fantastic for this child. I only wish it wouldn't create false-hope for families who are less fortunate, but have thousands (or tens of thousands) of dollars to blow on questionable treatments and false reason for hope.

1. https://openpaymentsdata.cms.gov/

2. https://www.quackwatch.org/06ResearchProjects/amen.html

3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WA0wKeokWUU

Re: Scientists Reverse Brain Damage in Drowned Toddler?

#204
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>we really are in the dark ages still No, we'd be in the dark ages if we were in still the dark ages. Our current level of progress would seem like science fiction or even magic as little as a century ago. I think I understand your point, that we have so much more to learn we're not even able to quantify what we don't know. But this is not some kind of endless quest. We're dealing with a machine in the end with finit…

>But this is not some kind of endless quest. We're dealing with a machine in the end with finite complexity and eventually it will be understood fundamentally. I'm guessing you don't work in the medical field (I have). First their's the emergent complexity of scale (after all the universe consists of a finite number of a small number of fundamental particles). Second, the human body (and all the pathogens etc) are ob…

>guessing you don't work in the medical field

Maybe the fact I don't actually makes it easier to understand biological complexity.

You guys have to figure out how to fix a brain when it breaks.

In CS, a holy grail is to match or exceed human cognition with general AI. It's not fixing something broken, its reverse engineering or alternatively engineering from scratch the greatest known computational device in the universe which has evolved over a billion years.

It's often not appreciated that this hasn't happened yet not due to lack of computing power. It hasn't happened yet because we're still not even remotely close to knowing what code to write if we did have 10,000 times more compute. We don't know how to do it, and instead are forced to plod along in awe as every year we learn a little more about what we don't know.

Re: Scientists Reverse Brain Damage in Drowned Toddler?

#205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The greater bone density of blacks makes it harder to float because they don't displace enough water for their mass. It isn't just social issues that discourage swimming.

Is there any research backing this up?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9024231

> Adjusted bone density at various skeletal sites was 4.5-16.1% higher for black than for white men and was 1.2-7.3% higher for black than for white women

Initially I thought that a bone-density increase of 16% would not significantly affect buoyancy, but the human body has relative-density of 0.98 compared to water... with a margin that narrow I can imagine that a 16% increase in bone density would tip someone to have a >1.0 relative-density compared to water - which then makes swimming difficult.

Re: Scientists Reverse Brain Damage in Drowned Toddler?

#206
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also be aware of "dry drowning," it's incredibly rare but worth knowing it exists and it's symptoms if you or anyone you are caring for has a near drowning episode. http://www.parents.com/kids/safety/outdoor/dry-drowning/ " Any child pulled from the pool needs medical attention ," says Dr. Berchelmann. "At the very least, call the pediatrician."

since i first heard of dry drowning earlier this summer, i haven't been able to enjoy a pool with my 1 and 2 year olds. It's taken the place of SIDS for me.

Dry Drowning takes place after children have a serious near drowning incident. Water has to get in the lungs you will know this has happened you won't be surprised by it.

We just got done doing a swimming class for our 2 year old and this was addressed in the class. I highly recommend you take a class with your children. Classes for younger than 3 years old are done with parents in the water. It'll make both your children and you much more comfortable and safe.

Re: Scientists Reverse Brain Damage in Drowned Toddler?

#207
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That page does not say dry drowning doesn't exist and does not contradict a single thing that was said in the link I posted. No shit swallowing water is not the same as aspirating [breathing] it and nobody said it was! "And I’m pretty sure everyone understands that a child who is down in the water, gets pulled out, and requires resuscitation needs immediate medical attention, even if they seem to recover." - No, they…

Wait, he didn't say "this link says there's no such thing as dry drowning". He said he was told to take his daughter to the doctor over suspected dry drowning, actually did so , and the doctor got upset because there's no such thing as dry drowning. His doctor contradicted you, and the advice you gave at the end of your comment. Are you also a doctor?

Actually his doctor is mostly right, however dry drowning can occur, but only from immersion in dihydrogen monoxide.

Re: Scientists Reverse Brain Damage in Drowned Toddler?

#208
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you both for taking the time to create accounts and respond. Both of these responses are amazing, and it's lurkers/posters like you that make this site great. One question: some of your responses attack only the credibility of the speaker (OP's 1st, 4th and your 4th, 5th points). Is this typical in scientific discourse? They seem to detract from your analysis to me.

Yes, when appropriate. Think of it as a Bayesian prior...

Exactly. There's good reason to think that most of human reasoning and the way we attain "knowledge" is not strict deductive logic from firm premises. Rather it's a mixture of Bayesian inference, abductive reasoning "to the best explanation", etc.

Re: Scientists Reverse Brain Damage in Drowned Toddler?

#209

Disclaimer: I am a neurologist The enthusiastic replies on this thread are understandable, but disappointing to see: we all need to be less credulous regarding the lay science press, and especially the lay medical press. I would love nothing more than to have this kind of therapy be a reality for my patients. However, I am deeply skeptical of this report. Why? Because - hyperbaric oxygen therapy has a big industry of…

> - this is in newsweek, and not a peer-reviewed journal.

Newsweek... that rings a bell. Didn't they also do the Satoshi Nakamoto fake?

Re: Scientists Reverse Brain Damage in Drowned Toddler?

#210

Disclaimer: I am a neurologist The enthusiastic replies on this thread are understandable, but disappointing to see: we all need to be less credulous regarding the lay science press, and especially the lay medical press. I would love nothing more than to have this kind of therapy be a reality for my patients. However, I am deeply skeptical of this report. Why? Because - hyperbaric oxygen therapy has a big industry of…

- do not apologize for spreading more information - this is hacker news I hope people are in it for some sort of rigor, not just for wow effect I forgot the 66min case, but that brings me to something I heard recently. Some paramedics said they managed to sustain some kid under cardiac arrest for 18 minutes (he had a nice if not full recovery). The average rule is that if heart has not restarted after 6 minutes, brai…

I can't speak intelligently to your questions, because I have no relevant first-hand experience or knowledge of CPR literature.

My only point regarding

> The average rule is that if heart has not restarted after 6 minutes, brain damage is irreversible

is that it doesn't mean it's worthless to continue CPR. Different people have different preferences about how grievous an injury they would want to survive. Whether to continue comes down to that preference. Have an advanced directive, and make sure your loved ones know what you want to have happen if you are every in an emergency!

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