Live data from Hacker News

On Password Managers

tbray.org

61–70 of 347 posts

Re: On Password Managers

#61
I agree with where he's coming from overall. Password managers [1] are a very important practical security measure that general users should be utilizing for the foreseeable future, and one where a good UI (as 1P and other commercial ones offer) is a genuine security feature, not just a nice-to-have, because their security implications are directly tied to how much users utilize them. That means while technical users will always have solid OSS solutions no matter what, it's worth paying attention to what major proprietary ones are doing too. This shouldn't be dismissed purely because KeePass variants or whatever exist.

And I definitely don't like the business incentives subscription models generally create when it comes to standalone software development (as opposed to a server-based service), and so far the major moves to them I have experienced (such as Adobe's) have reinforced my concerns. While in the short term individual personalities can of course do whatever, I think in the medium to long term it's very hard for development direction to stay divorced from whatever the direct economic incentives of the business model are. In turn thinking about that is one of the more important factors in thinking about to what degree a company can be depended on over the years. Because:

1. Humans have a strong tendency to favor the status quo unless there is a disruption (HN crowd likely deals with this frequently, such as with the immense power of defaults in UI design).

2. Low constant noise triggers less consideration then occasional larger spikes, even if the former adds up to more in the same time period.

3. There is direct loss associated with stopping.

4. Lock-in increases.

subscriptions are well known to be a lot stickier and less sensitive to stagnating software, pricing changes, etc., then per-version purchases are. Companies can put out "being able to focus on the longer term!" but fundamentally subscriptions remove a significant form of customer-oriented hard discipline and incentives. Some devs might be able to continue the same without it, but many clearly cannot. And I want to emphasize that this isn't at all necessarily because of any maliciousness or even greed, no "haha now we have them where we want them". It's just that a lot of humans will lose focus without some sort of hard-to-subvert, reasonably fast outside feedback loop. Subscriptions also encourage feature development and testing towards a single vertical ecosystem, even if other approaches would be perfectly viable.

AgileBits says they're keeping standalone licenses, but I see nothing about reasonable feature parity. I also agree that one of the best ways to assuage concerns is full honesty, including acknowledging obvious conflicts of interest, and in that light I agree it would have been valuable to see at least something about how this boosts their revenue, and how they're aware of the risk of making standalone licenses second class citizens and will watch for it. They've been a solid company and made a solid product overall however, so I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt here for now. It'd be a shame if they ultimately do go sub-only at some point, even if data can be trivially dumped to other programs.

Maybe by that time though progress will be made on finally getting websites away from password authentication entirely and in turn PMs can be rendered mostly a historical artifact.

As as an aside, though I think this blog is aimed at a general audience there are a few misunderstandings that are significant, since they're not that complex but feed misunderstandings. For example:

>In the 1Password app's sync model, however, one assumes they use the pretty-secure HTTPS-based APIs for each of these products, machine to machine, no JavaScript in the loop.

The author himself correct states that in 1Password's (or KeePass or any other client based encrypted database setup) case they're using purely offline-app endpoint encryption, and part of the entire point of that is that the transport mechanism is irrelevant. There is no need to trust anything beyond what exists on the endpoint. This matters because it relates to some of the other concern points he raises, not just cloud storage location but for example "backdoor code in a future 1Password app release that sends the goodies to the enemies". An endpoint password manager that allows abstracting sync from the application itself, at least optionally, in turn can be isolated from any net access (and/or any attempts monitored) which reduces that threat profile as well.

----

1. Effectively a mediocre reimplementation of public key auth on top of 90s-era website authentication practices that have proved sticky.

Re: On Password Managers

#62
post #22

Just to be clear, it's still 100% possible to keep your 1Password vault in Dropbox etc and not use the SaaS version [1]. I felt like this fact was buried in the article. Edit: Here's the link to buy the standalone license [2] which is hard to find on the site now. In a post from the founder one week ago [3] he said, "We know that not everyone is ready to make the jump yet, and as such, we will continue to support cus…

Given the change to their business model I am concerned they can push an update, where the next time I unlock my vault it syncs my master password and/or decrypted vault to their cloud. Maybe time for an open source password manager?

It wouldn’t because you have to pay for their service first.

Re: On Password Managers

#63

I'm surpised nobody cited lesspass, https://lesspass.com/#/ Nobody store your password it's pure stateless, you can access the software by the official website, your website, web plugin, the terminal see this blog: https://blog.lesspass.com/lesspass-how-it-works-dde742dd18a4

HN has some problems with it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12889807

I use it and enjoy it. Most of the complaints have to do with there only being 1 master password and being able to crack it if one of your passwords is compromised which doesn't bother me since I use a sufficiently long master password.

Re: On Password Managers

#64
post #53

Is it still the case that the 1Password Master Password is never transacted over the web, even on 1Password.com? The encrypt/decrypt is done in the browser?

It was my understanding that the "secret key" never goes over the network. The secret key is generated locally, never sent over the network, and vaults are encrypted/decrypted locally.

Re: On Password Managers

#65
post #34

Any password manager recommendations such that people don't need to deal with 1Password's cloud-based storage?

I recently switched from 1password to Enpass and have been very happy. If you want to use more than 20 passwords on their mobile app it will cost you a one time fee of $9.99 per platform. Very reasonable in my opinion. https://www.enpass.io

Enpass works the best for me as well.

I use Mac for work and Windows/Ubuntu at home. Enpass is the only solution I found that works for all three OS perfectly.

Re: On Password Managers

#66
post #40

IMHO this part is where the nail is hit right on the head: >Why is AgileBits doing this? · For the same reason that Adobe has been pressuring its customers, for years now, to start subscribing to its product, rather than buying each successive version of each app. A subscription business is much nicer to operate than one where you have to go out and re-convince people to re-buy your software. It is the part (common t…

The new model is better for you if you want the company to make enough money to be able to support the product and put out new releases to fix bugs and vulnerabilities.

Why did the old model suddenly become unprofitable? If it's team bloat I'm not really sympathetic.

Re: On Password Managers

#67

At our company we use keepass2 with a db file synced by dropbox. Works nicely. Keepass can save all sorts of stuff alongside passwords (like credentials, api-tokens...) and there is an app too (for android at least). Might get a bit clunky if lots of people change a lot of stuff all the time but for us it is not a problem.

Does anyone at your company use iOS? If so, how are they doing it?

I use iOS with Keepass1. Not sure how you can do it with Keepass2 without converting the thing over and over.

Re: On Password Managers

#68

I'm surpised nobody cited lesspass, https://lesspass.com/#/ Nobody store your password it's pure stateless, you can access the software by the official website, your website, web plugin, the terminal see this blog: https://blog.lesspass.com/lesspass-how-it-works-dde742dd18a4

Deterministic password managers (stateless) are not necessarily more secure than the normal database password managers. I have linked a HN discussion and blog post about this.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13016132

Re: On Password Managers

#69
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given the change to their business model I am concerned they can push an update, where the next time I unlock my vault it syncs my master password and/or decrypted vault to their cloud. Maybe time for an open source password manager?

I'm not sure where that concern is founded. They've been extremely clear that: - both products will continue to be supported - your master password doesn't sync to their cloud - your vault doesn't sync to their cloud unless you're using the subscription version and when it does sync, it's encrypted

Well, no, unless I missed something, they have not been clear that local-storage 1Password will continue to work. They have carefully left the door open to changing that at some undefined point in the future.

At which point I will migrate away. I love the apps (use it on MacOS and iOS), but local-only storage and non-cloud sync are my hard requirements. I'm willing to pay a monthly rent, but will not 'cloudify' my passwords.

Re: On Password Managers

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The new model is better for you if you want the company to make enough money to be able to support the product and put out new releases to fix bugs and vulnerabilities.

Why did the old model suddenly become unprofitable? If it's team bloat I'm not really sympathetic.

> "Today, over 95% of our revenues are coming from subscribers"

https://blog.agilebits.com/2017/07/13/why-we-love-1password-...

Post reply on HN