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Net neutrality is dying with a whimper

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111–120 of 136 posts

Re: Net neutrality is dying with a whimper

#111
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because the fear is that the internet will become like TV But I would rather take that than Internet becoming like TV, where govt can pass 'fairness doctrine' and other stuff, or restrict it significantly during war time. I'd rather trust economic incentives to keep Internet free than political incentives. If people are willing to pay for full coverage of the War, then even though govt is pressuring ISPs, it result…

Please do not spread unfounded conspiracy theories here. There is absolutely nothing to back up that position.

I did not post any conspiracy theories. Saying "If I leave my keys with Peter's wife, I could be robbed by Peter" is not a conspiracy theory, saying "Peter is planning to rob me" is.

I posted a legitimate possibility.

Re: Net neutrality is dying with a whimper

#112

Wouldn't getting rid of net neutrality actually be good for startups and smaller companies? People are effectively subsidizing the internet giants right now, if telecoms charged extra for them people would move on to different services? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it's odd to see people banding together to defend Google, Amazon, Netflix, etc. Although the companies on the other side are obviously scum as wel…

1. I care more about my ability to access the internet than any startup's ability to do business.

2. If NN is thrown out, and pay to play becomes the name of the game, who do you think is going to be able to pay? Google, Amazon, Netflix, etc, or some unnamed startup?

Re: Net neutrality is dying with a whimper

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are economic incentives to deliver what people want. Fox news is hugely profitable because it delivers to people what no other media organization delivers, and that is a right wing perspective on events. Throughout the Obama years, Fox News made insane amount of money precisely for this reason.

You're being downvoted for making people read the words "Fox news" but you're absolutely right about this. I would state it another way though. Fox news is hugely profitable because it provides information to people that validates, reinforces, and legitimizes their particular social and political beliefs. It thickens the walls of their bubble. Fox news led the way with this and every other network quickly followed su…

No, they really are not. "Economic incentives" only come into play when there are choices. Most people do not have any kind of choice in their ISP, thus the "Economic incentives" argument carries no water.

Re: Net neutrality is dying with a whimper

#114
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Net neutrality is dying because no one has been able to make a compelling case for it that can be understood by constituents, I disagree, I think the case can be easily made but it is being drowned out by the ISP's and their supporters with a MASSIVE wave of disinformation, and false information. I have spent the majority of my time in discussions not attempting to explain why Title II is needed, but simply attempti…

> MASSIVE wave of disinformation None of it has reached me. The only anti-NN arguments I see are from a small handful of anarcho-capitalist friends.

THIS. It is very clear that if there is a "MASSIVE wave of anything", it is from the other side i.e. companies like Netflix, Google, Microsoft, Facebook, Twitter etc. They have made it an "internet freedom" issue when internet freedom is not a problem at all.

If there is a threat on internet freedom, it's already there and it's Google, Facebook, Twitter etc. who can pick and choose what a user can see on the internet. In fact, they are much bigger threat in that they can filter out websites based on their contents, and make certain things impossible to search for or go viral... while ISPs, at best, can block individual IPs.

Re: Net neutrality is dying with a whimper

#115
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please do not spread unfounded conspiracy theories here. There is absolutely nothing to back up that position.

I did not post any conspiracy theories. Saying "If I leave my keys with Peter's wife, I could be robbed by Peter" is not a conspiracy theory, saying "Peter is planning to rob me" is. I posted a legitimate possibility.

No. It is not. It is an unfounded paranoia spread to justify letting ISPs run rampant with our rights.

Re: Net neutrality is dying with a whimper

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> MASSIVE wave of disinformation None of it has reached me. The only anti-NN arguments I see are from a small handful of anarcho-capitalist friends.

THIS. It is very clear that if there is a "MASSIVE wave of anything", it is from the other side i.e. companies like Netflix, Google, Microsoft, Facebook, Twitter etc. They have made it an "internet freedom" issue when internet freedom is not a problem at all. If there is a threat on internet freedom, it's already there and it's Google, Facebook, Twitter etc. who can pick and choose what a user can see on the internet…

Someone did not read the story it would seem.....

>They have made it an "internet freedom" issue when internet freedom is not a problem at all.

Example of the disinformation...

>If there is a threat on internet freedom, it's already there and it's Google, Facebook, Twitter etc. who can pick and choose what a user can see on the internet.

They can? How do they do that? I do not use Facebook or Twitter at all, and used google very very limited having transition to DDG as my search provider over a year ago...

Does facebook control my Arch Linux Computer... shit....

>> while ISPs, at best, can block individual IPs.

Please tell me your not serial....

You really believe the is "at best" all they can do... really... You just keep highlighting how successful the disinformation campaign is...

Re: Net neutrality is dying with a whimper

#117
The best way I have seen to describe net neutrality to laypeople was uttered by John Oliver: "preventing cable company fuckery".

A good example: like the water company suddenly saying that you're not allowed to use your water to fill reusable water bottles, unless you pay a further monthly fee, but they do have a partnership with Dasani to deliver water bottles to your door for cheaper than the store price.

Re: Net neutrality is dying with a whimper

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because the fear is that the internet will become like TV But I would rather take that than Internet becoming like TV, where govt can pass 'fairness doctrine' and other stuff, or restrict it significantly during war time. I'd rather trust economic incentives to keep Internet free than political incentives. If people are willing to pay for full coverage of the War, then even though govt is pressuring ISPs, it result…

What are the economic incentives to keep Internet free?

I don't know if you can meaningfully talk about "market" when such a small number of players control the physical layer.

Re: Net neutrality is dying with a whimper

#119
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, it's their own healthcare plan. The Republican party held Congress during Obama's administration.

Obamacare passed without a single Republican vote. The Republicans took over congress largely as a result of the unpopularity of the policy and the process.

Oh, I hadn't followed it that closely then.

Re: Net neutrality is dying with a whimper

#120
post #18

Is there any hope that some new ISP gets created that does follow net neutrality? What's likely to happen to an ISP that doesn't play the fast/slow lane approach?

I would love to be corrected and there is a lot of disinformation, at least from one side, but here is my understanding of the issue:

Let's say an ISP A wants to cover a small area with 1000 potential users. So, lets say they allocate 100gbps bandwidth for the market. So, they sell 100mbps internet to 1000 users. All of the users get 100mbps dedicated but it is expensive for them. Besides, not all users are using 100mbps all the time anyway. So, a competing ISP B could just allocate 10gbps (one-tenth of what other had) saving a lot of costs, and offer 100mbps at half the price with a condition that speeds could be lower at peak hours because if everyone is using full bandwidth (very unlikely), they will only get 1/10th of the advertised speeds (in practice, it's usually close to advertised speed most of the time). The ISP A is completely outpriced so they can either lower their prices or go out of business... and obviously they choose a similar strategy to be competitive.

This has been the case for a long time. They have optimized it with dynamic contention ratios and the like but this is basically how it works. Anyone who needs dedicated bandwidth knows that prices for those for the same speeds are very expensive compared to regular internet.

The problem with this is obviously "the problem users". Back in the days, they were the ones who would hog up maximum bandwidth most of the time using it for file sharing (seed/download all day long). In the above example, if 100 users use all the available bandwidth at all times, whole of the bandwidth is taken up all the time. So, during peak hours, when some of the other 900 joined in, the speeds were much slower than advertised.

The ISPs noticed that file sharing was using most of the bandwidth, so if they blocked it, they could improve internet experience of everyone (except for the pirates, which made a small percentage of their customer base). This is what Comcast did in 2007 by blocking bittorrent traffic. The pirates however, who also happened to be the most active and knowledgable internet users, were not happy obviously. So, two lobbies filed a case against Comcast making it a freedom issue (see Comcast Corp. v. FCC) which got a huge attention from the most active and vocal pirates.

This meant that ISPs could not differentiate between what kind of and how much traffic went through. This meant companies could offer services requiring very high bandwidth (eg. HD video streaming) and if the internet was slow, the ISPs would be the culprit (for advertising higher speeds than they were able to provide if a lot of users used such services).

Obviously, at this point, the best option for ISPs is to make internet more expensive. However, they obviously want to expand the market and rise in price could mean many users may just drop the service. So, they are going for this another option... which would allow them to charge different rates for profitable high-bandwidth using services and hence the cost would be transferred to the providers of those services and not the end customers. Obviously, those service providers (Google, Netflix, Pornhub etc.) don't want the cost to come to them (which might mean that their users would drop if they priced their services higher or entire business models to fail), they'd rather it be transferred to end users. So, they are vehemently pushing the "internet freedom"/"net neutrality" narrative when it's definitely not.

To answer your question, ISPs would be free to not use the fast/slow lane approach if they can be competitive with it.

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