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How a Reddit forum has become a lifeline to opioid addicts in the US

theguardian.com

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Re: How a Reddit forum has become a lifeline to opioid addicts in the US

#201

Post by taurath »

ucarion wrote: post #86
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Violent, hateful, disgusting speech has no place in civil discourse but it's irreplaceable in public discourse. That's kinda the problem. As a species, our entire communications spectrum can't be forced into either bucket. It has to exist in both. The kind of things I wouldn't tolerate at all around my family I'm fine tolerating around my friends. And the kind of things I wouldn't tolerate from a friend I'm fine tole…

The commenter you replied to may have a point. Just because vile speech has a place in public discourse, doesn't mean it is good to present that speech in a very public way. Reddit is among the most widely-used websites in the world -- 7th, by Alexa's rankings. Reddit lives up to its motto of being the front page of the internet. Imagine one of the top-10 newspapers in the United States were occasionally publishing s…

If 20 people were to stand up on a soapbox with a megaphone in times square screaming about /r/redpill, /r/fatpeoplehate, etc concepts they would be removed if legal, and if not legal a huge countermovement would appear to try to force them out. On Reddit you get both the megaphone and the safe space, but are still just as easily accessible to the public as anywhere.

Its "real" freedom of information, without many of the mechanisms that larger society uses to fight back against it. Instead it is just ignored and left to fester and grow until it pops into the public forum at the point where huge efforts are required to fight it. I feel like the internet is a great way to get differing views out, but not a great way to build any cultural agreement.

Re: How a Reddit forum has become a lifeline to opioid addicts in the US

#202

Post by jeshbreadnan »

SippinLean wrote: post #101
smokeyj wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question. Why do you care what people post online? The great thing about reddit is that you get to choose which communities you subscribe to. Your mentality is the equivalent of "I can't go to bed. Someone on the internet is wrong". I think your basic premise is wrong - that "racism and xenophobia" are on the rise. You can't measure the number of people who aren't racist because you don't hear them. And before…

Because the hate has spilled over into the good communities as well. Hatred and bigotry used to be contained in places like /the_donald and /WhiteRights but those users eventually browse /popular and leave their vitriol there as well. Having been on reddit for a decade it's sad to see it go from a tech/intellectual community to what it is now. I want real discussion, not arguing with racists. Seems reddit offers less…

I would challenge you to go to /the_donald and find a single example of hatred or bigotry. I think you will be unsuccessful.

Re: How a Reddit forum has become a lifeline to opioid addicts in the US

#203

Post by taurath »

bittercynic wrote: post #93
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Violent, hateful, disgusting speech has no place in civil discourse but it's irreplaceable in public discourse. That's kinda the problem. As a species, our entire communications spectrum can't be forced into either bucket. It has to exist in both. The kind of things I wouldn't tolerate at all around my family I'm fine tolerating around my friends. And the kind of things I wouldn't tolerate from a friend I'm fine tole…

It's a difficult spot because social networks try to maintain a fiction that they're a public forum where free speech must be respected. As far as I know there is no legal precedent that this is so, and they're free to ban users/cull posts from their web sites as they see fit. Additionally, I'd say they have a responsibility to prevent their site from being used for certain purposes, though the boundaries of what's a…

They're a public forum with none of the traditional social controls, because people can say anything behind a screen of anonymity. Its a public forum with almost 0 institutional memory, and true arguments can be avoided with the click of a mouse that wouldn't be possible in person.

Re: How a Reddit forum has become a lifeline to opioid addicts in the US

#204

Post by bittercynic »

icebraining wrote: post #194
bittercynic wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a difficult spot because social networks try to maintain a fiction that they're a public forum where free speech must be respected. As far as I know there is no legal precedent that this is so, and they're free to ban users/cull posts from their web sites as they see fit. Additionally, I'd say they have a responsibility to prevent their site from being used for certain purposes, though the boundaries of what's a…

though the boundaries of what's acceptable are tough to define. After denying it, you just explained why it's a difficult spot. By the way, website are in fact not legally responsible for that traffic, under Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act[1], which the courts have upheld against sites like eBay, Google, Craigslist, Backpage and MySpace. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_230_of_the_Communicati..…

Thanks for the link!

I only know as much about Section 230 as I just read at that link, but it seems that this doesn't provide protection for things like calling for violence against a religious/sexual/race group. I concede that the exact boundary of what is a call for violence is hard to pin down, but I don't think that makes it OK to throw up your hands and say "Anything goes on my site!"

Re: How a Reddit forum has become a lifeline to opioid addicts in the US

#205

Post by nokcha »

lsmarigo wrote: post #150
unabridged wrote: post #97

>The obvious counter-argument is silencing them strengthens their argument and makes them a martyr. I don't buy that argument at all, it's far more dangerous to allow them to indoctrinate and appeal to all the fringe disenfranchised youth which they've become frighteningly effective at. In any case it's clear reddit can be used for good like in this article, I'm just not so sure it's a net positive to society as anot…

Then why is yelling "fire" in a crowded theatre illegal? With your reasoning you should just be able to 'fight that idea with saying "No there is NOT a fire" but it's too late, the damage is done.

Falsely yelling "fire" in a crowded theater is illegal because the First Amendment has exceptions for lying (i.e., asserting an objective falsehood with intent to deceive).

Re: How a Reddit forum has become a lifeline to opioid addicts in the US

#206

Post by Chardok »

aianus wrote: post #200
danans wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree that a lot more funds for treatment are needed to fight the opioid epidemic, it is really a fundamentally different problem that road fatalities. The only thing they really have in common are the fatalities. The opioid crisis seems like a symptom of our social problems (hopelessness in the rust belt, unscrupulous over-prescribing of pain meds) that has fatal consequences. Short of a drug that provided a…

> Short of a drug that provided a permanent cure for opioid addiction itself, I'm not sure what sort of solutions can be pursued by scientific/tech research, as opposed to addressing the root social causes. Just give them the opiates for free in supervised facilities and let them have otherwise normal, albeit constipated lives. It works and costs very little.

Every time I bring this up people look at me like I am insane for suggesting such a thing.

What people don't think about is the extra societal costs associated with drug addition: thefts/violent crimes, prison costs, unproductive time from seeking the next high, etc. Cutting out the middleman would solve a great deal of these issues, and save the taxpayer money too.

It seems the moral issue of giving "free drugs" to addicts is just too much to bear, unfortunately.

Re: How a Reddit forum has become a lifeline to opioid addicts in the US

#207

Post by lsmarigo »

scottmf wrote: post #119
jimmaswell wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's often said that the admins simply only shut down a subreddit once its negative publicity is enough to start hurting the website's brand or ad revenue in some way.

Yep. They turn a blind eye to all of it because they profit from it. If I weren't so politically burnt out right now I'd call for a Reddit boycott. Either way this thread has reminded me to block it and delete my account because I'm done with that site after 10+ years.

100%. They're not the only ones either, it's become the industry status quo for platforms to allow these groups to operate openly - Discord has the same policy and houses some of the largest organized hate groups online. You can make the case that this way at least they can keep tabs on them and give any relevant information to authorities when crimes are committed.

To be clear I'm not trying to rail on the founders of these orgs, I can't say for sure that I'd do much better in their position, it's a business first after all.

Re: How a Reddit forum has become a lifeline to opioid addicts in the US

#208

Post by dsfyu404ed »

gooseus wrote: post #62

What I find fascinating and disappointing is how much the opioid crisis isn't being talked about or addressed proportional to other societal issues. Billions of dollars of private research being poured into self-driving cars by our greatest minds and millions of dollars in lobbying against gun laws all in the name of preventing unnecessary human deaths... yet according to Ben Bernanke (and his references), opioid ove…

>perception of drug addicts as weak and deserving of their fate

I think you're right but the reasoning is one step removed from the conclusion.

Drug addition is a poor people problem (in part because it takes resources and support to break the cycle).

Opiod (and meth for that matter) addiction skews rural and therefore white.

A lot of people take the attitude that poor rural white trash are poor white trash because they live in a dying town with no industry and refuse to relocate to somewhere they can more easily scrape by. The catch is that the people making these judgements generally have a very different set of values than the people they're judging.

When you take the attitude that the situation that leads one to easily become an addict is the fault of the addict then it's hard to have sympathy for addicts.

There's also a lot of (well meaning) "optimism to the point of stupidity" in assessing how effective firearms legislation is as an avenue to reduce violent crime and how easy it is to make a driver-less car that can effectively share the roads with vehicles operated by people

Re: How a Reddit forum has become a lifeline to opioid addicts in the US

#209

Post by lsmarigo »

taurath wrote: post #201
ucarion wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The commenter you replied to may have a point. Just because vile speech has a place in public discourse, doesn't mean it is good to present that speech in a very public way. Reddit is among the most widely-used websites in the world -- 7th, by Alexa's rankings. Reddit lives up to its motto of being the front page of the internet. Imagine one of the top-10 newspapers in the United States were occasionally publishing s…

If 20 people were to stand up on a soapbox with a megaphone in times square screaming about /r/redpill, /r/fatpeoplehate, etc concepts they would be removed if legal, and if not legal a huge countermovement would appear to try to force them out. On Reddit you get both the megaphone and the safe space, but are still just as easily accessible to the public as anywhere. Its "real" freedom of information, without many of…

this is a great perspective and post, thanks

Re: How a Reddit forum has become a lifeline to opioid addicts in the US

#210

Post by nostrademons »

gooseus wrote: post #62

What I find fascinating and disappointing is how much the opioid crisis isn't being talked about or addressed proportional to other societal issues. Billions of dollars of private research being poured into self-driving cars by our greatest minds and millions of dollars in lobbying against gun laws all in the name of preventing unnecessary human deaths... yet according to Ben Bernanke (and his references), opioid ove…

I'm reminded of this Twitter exchange, in which Alan Kay graffiti'd YCombinator's "Make something people want" poster to say "Make something people need" and Paul Graham retorted that "making something people need but don't want kills startups".

https://twitter.com/sama/status/656892679817527296

The point of business is to create a customer. For that to happen, there has to be someone out there who has voluntarily decided they want to use (and ideally pay for) your product. The same goes for political movements - to build a mass political movement, you need a critical mass of people who voluntarily decide that this cause is worth investing time and money into.

By definition, addiction means that your voluntary choices are going to serve the furtherance of your addiction. So there's no customer there, and no profit potential, unless you're a drug dealer. Social interventions like drug treatment clinics could perhaps work, relying on the desires of loved ones, but it's very hard to help someone else unless they make choices to help themselves. When your brain chemistry has been altered so all it wants is more of the drug, that's not a given.

It's a hard problem. Unfortunately history hasn't been kind to populations with mass drug abuse; when I think of countries with a societal drug problem [1][2] or even subpopulations within a larger nation with widespread drug abuse [3][4], the cultures involved all basically collapsed. For countries, the general pattern involved top-down reforms -> military defeats -> revolution -> conquest by another power. For subcultures within a larger nation, it's the total marginalization of the group in question, assimilation into the larger population of the remaining productive members, and then long-term decay and blight on the remnants of the subculture.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_Wars

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_Nazi_Germany

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crack_epidemic

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_and_Native_Americans

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