Why I left Japan after 10 years • Hacker News Board

Re: Why I left Japan after 10 years

#201

Post by glandium » Wed, Jul 19, 2017, 11:19 AM UTC

EliRivers wrote: post #44

drops wrote: post #30

>The level of English in Japan is shockingly low, despite everyone studying it for 6 years at school. I honestly think it is kept deliberately low >I honestly think it is kept deliberately low Is this guy serious?

It seems that he is serious. You knew that already. Perhaps you disagree? Perhaps you can present your own findings and contribute to the discussion? Based on my own fairly limited experience in Japan, English as learned in school doesn't seem to translate (a ha ha) into effective English conversation. It seems that an academic rigor is taught (no bad thing, of course) but practical conversation skills are neglected.

It's easy to point at a specific country (Japan) for the low level of their english, but that could be said of many (most?) english-as-second-or-third-language countries, starting with my own, France.

Re: Why I left Japan after 10 years

#202

Post by taneq » Wed, Jul 19, 2017, 11:20 AM UTC

Hasknewbie wrote: post #172

taneq wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now we're entering into a debate of whether perfectly rational behaviour should be eschewed in favour of virtue signalling.

"Now we're entering into a debate of whether perfectly rational behaviour should be eschewed in favour of virtue signalling." Said he, before proudly hanging his "No Irish" sign on the front door of his shop.

Actually, no, I do this too. If a person of $demographic_X, wearing stereotypical $demographic_X clothes, approaches me at a train station, I know they're going to ask me for money, and then abuse me when I don't give them any, but I still give them a friendly greeting and listen to whatever they have to say, purely because the one time that one person from that demographic who isn't like that approaches me, I want to make sure I treat them like a human being.

But this is a mild example that doesn't cost me much. I think it's an important thought experiment to figure out just how far you'd go and how much loss you'd accept to preserve that self-image of being "a good person."

Re: Why I left Japan after 10 years

#203

Post by markburns » Wed, Jul 19, 2017, 11:24 AM UTC

yorwba wrote: post #67

arnioxux wrote: post #23

The "JAPANESE ONLY" sign was probably meant for chinese tourists. The kanji below it, "謝绝中国人", translates roughly to "decline chinese people" which is understandable given their notorious behavior abroad: http://shanghaiist.com/2016/12/30/shanghaiist_2016_embarrass... https://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/11/world/asia/bad-manners-ch... http://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2016/10/07/commentary/wo...

"謝绝中国人" doesn't match what I know about Japanese grammar, but does match Chinese grammar. So I would expect the bilingual sign to be directed towards all foreigners. Once in English ("Japanese only") for everyone who speaks it, and once in Chinese to directly address Chinese tourists (who might not speak English).

FYI I think the 绝 is only Simplified Chinese, 絕 in Traditional.

I think 絶 is the Japanese equivalent.

Re: Why I left Japan after 10 years

#204

Post by jaredklewis » Wed, Jul 19, 2017, 11:24 AM UTC

brucephillips wrote: post #116

jaredklewis wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most Japanese I know speak Japanese with me. Of course sometime strangers, usually as a kind gesture, speak to me in English. If it seems the conversation can be smoothly done in English, we continue in English. If not, I switch into Japanese and we continue in Japanese. How is any of that offensive or anything but kind? Comparing the situation to America seems silly. Most people don't speak to Asians on the street i…

> How is any of that offensive or anything but kind? When did I say it was offensive?

Good point. Apologies if I projected the main post's angst onto your comment.

Perhaps I am little defensive as I often encounter the point of view that if a foreigner is treated any differently than a racially Japanese person, that this is somehow a fault of Japanese or their culture, when really the worst you can say about them on this topic is that they are observant. People get all worked up that Japanese people know they are white.

It's like I'm older and get asked if I have kids all the time. My younger colleagues never get asked that. They get asked where they went to school and such. It's not discrimination, it's people trying to make conversation and making some reasonable assumptions along the way.

Anyway rant over.

Re: Why I left Japan after 10 years

#205

Post by fenomas » Wed, Jul 19, 2017, 11:28 AM UTC

brucephillips wrote: post #88

fiblye wrote: post #40

I heard the "if you don't like it, leave line" from people all the time in America. Even with the pettiest of political disagreements, people say it. So then I went to Japan and haven't received or heard of anyone receiving similar vitriol aside from the OP. A foreign coworker (same race and nationality as me) endlessly complains about racism, discrimination, and being stared at here. I've experienced none of it. I'm…

> It's just a matter of being on the other end of it now. Not quite. It's a different degree. When I was in Japan, for example, no Japanese person would start a conversation with me in Japanese. It was always English. That mostly doesn't happen to Asian residents in the US.

> no Japanese person would start a conversation with me in Japanese. It was always English

Note that this is functionally equivalent to saying "the only people who started conversations with me were people who wanted to practice their English", and that's probably closer to what was going on.

Personally, my first few years in Japan people started English conversations with me all the time, but at some point it slowed and then stopped - I can't even remember when last it happened. Whether that's due to something about me changing, or a byproduct of the places I hang out, etc., I have no idea.

Re: Why I left Japan after 10 years

#206

Post by kintle » Wed, Jul 19, 2017, 11:41 AM UTC

patio11 wrote: post #154

I have had approximately 10 involuntary interactions with the Japanese cops over the years. Here's my typical advice for foreign residents: you can pick your battles but you can't pick your police counterparties. The overwhelming likelihood if you are arbitrarily stopped by a police officer is that you were stopped for a reason which is outside the parameters of the law. Being vindicated by the law is something which…

Within a month or so of purchasing a used bicycle in Tokyo, I had been stopped more than 5 times by police. I guess the sight of a foreign guy on the cheapest bike I could find screams police magnet. It was cute at first and I was super polite and it would end quickly, but after a couple that resulted in patdowns, searches, and 20+ minutes answering questions about my presence in the country, I now make an effort to ride past the police if they're around. It's also made me more aware of the need to be a bit more cautious as a foreigner here than I thought

Re: Why I left Japan after 10 years

#207

Post by gopz » Wed, Jul 19, 2017, 11:48 AM UTC

What I've found after living in a few foreign countries (originally from the US):

If you balk at minor incidents of xenophobia and in so doing generally act as if you don't belong, it will only make it worse.

If you can take it in stride and keep a stiff upper lip people will assume you've already gone through enough "hazing" and leave you alone/be more welcoming.

Even if you're trying to be polite, being overly apologetic is almost always bad, unless the situation is incredibly dire. It makes people think you are trying to get away with something by being there.

Re: Why I left Japan after 10 years

#208

Post by muninn_ » Wed, Jul 19, 2017, 11:49 AM UTC

fiblye wrote: post #40

I heard the "if you don't like it, leave line" from people all the time in America. Even with the pettiest of political disagreements, people say it. So then I went to Japan and haven't received or heard of anyone receiving similar vitriol aside from the OP. A foreign coworker (same race and nationality as me) endlessly complains about racism, discrimination, and being stared at here. I've experienced none of it. I'm…

Hmm, the "where are you from" isn't something I buy here. It's pretty obvious if an Asian person is "from" the U.S. and if their English has an accent I see no issues asking if/where they are from. It's a simple conversation starter. If somebody asks me where I'm from, I just tell them the city. It's not a big deal.

Re: Why I left Japan after 10 years

#209

Post by S4M » Wed, Jul 19, 2017, 11:51 AM UTC

6t6t6t6 wrote: post #180

S4M wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I live in Spain (Barcelona) and look Asian. It often happens to me that people start a conversation with me in English.

I am from Barcelona and it happens something similar with my Japanese wife, but with Spanish. She is not fluent in Catalan nor Spanish, but she can speak some Catalan. And every time, because she looks asian, everybody changes the conversation to Spanish even if she started talking in Catalan. Everybody assumes that she is Chinese as well...

Well I'm French (grew up and born in France, but my father is Vietnamese), and some people have trouble to accept that I am not from an Asian country. The conversation goes like this: "Where are you from?" "France" "Uh?? no, come on, seriously" "Yes, I'm from France" "OK, but... where are you born?" ""Uh... France...".

By the way, my wife is also Japanese... it's possible that our wives know each other :)

Re: Why I left Japan after 10 years

#210

Post by muninn_ » Wed, Jul 19, 2017, 11:55 AM UTC

on_and_off wrote: post #165

atemerev wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's small cultural differences. In the UK, the most dreaded crime you can do is cutting in the queue — while in other countries, while still frowned upon, this is not a big deal. Here in Switzerland, if you dare to get your trash out to someone else's container and get caught in the act, you are royally screwed — while people in other countries can't get it, trash is still getting out by waste management services, w…

Can you expand the 'not the greatest country anecdote' ? I am moving to SF soon (from France) and while the US have great opportunities for techies, I find it the 'best country in the world' mantra laughable. (it applies to pretty much any country though .. which norm (in the mathematical sense) are you using exactly ? I don't think there is one and only one.

Well, it's fine if you don't think the U.S. Is the best, just don't make a point about it. It's not so much that Americans don't think America has faults, we just mostly love our country and take offense if you criticize it the wrong way. I love France but it certainly has its fair share of problems, for example, but I don't go around arguing with The French if they say they love France and it's the greatest place. It's just non-productive.

Also in SF you'll get a bunch of self-hating people who haven't traveled much who think the U.S. sucks, just like in Alabama you'd get a bunch of irrationally pro-America people who haven't traveled much and don't see why the U.S. can suck with certain things.