Without Flash the current web tech stack might look different • Hacker News Board

Re: Without Flash the current web tech stack might look different

#101

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jul 19, 2017, 3:45 AM UTC

Laforet wrote: post #60

dyarosla wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Flash screwed up security because of the way users could control what Flash had access to (through a Security Sandbox Controller on the Macromedia/Adobe website) Imagine that instead Flash went the way of App Permissions: asking users for permission to access, read, and write different things to the browser. Could you imagine? Advertisers wouldn't be able to pull as many annoying/shady things, and security wo…

Madobe once closely guarded the Flash player code base, yet their approach rapidly shifted to total abandonment in the early 2010s after realising that the chance to have a presence on modern smartphones had already sailed. All the issues that followed were symptoms of neglect. A similar lack of comittment is also what doomed AIR which had a chance to succeed - after all there was a tonne of existing content waiting…

[deleted]

Re: Without Flash the current web tech stack might look different

#102

Post by cpeterso » Wed, Jul 19, 2017, 4:00 AM UTC

Brajeshwar wrote: post #93

Ah! Flash! I started my career as a programmer but always had a mind for creative designs. When I discovered Flash around 2002-2003, I was all over it. ActionScript was my ultimate weapon to make Flash sing and dance to all my tunes. I was so involved then, Macromedia picked me as one of their "Professional Expert" or something in that line. Those were the times when I made good money, lots of friends, clients, met f…

Thanks for sharing! That's a blast from the past. I used to work on the Flash team at Macromedia and Adobe in that very office. :)

I believe "Lego" was the code name for Flex Builder aimed at developers. "Duplo" was the unfortunate code name for a corresponding Flash authoring application aimed at designers who didn't write ActionScript.

Re: Without Flash the current web tech stack might look different

#103

Post by cpeterso » Wed, Jul 19, 2017, 4:03 AM UTC

turnspike wrote: post #98

DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> caprice of a single corp. There was no sudden-change: they kept on maintaining Director, years after its main use-cases (kiosk applications, magazine cover demo disc launchers and CD autoplay software) stopped being relevant. If my experiences at other software companies are anything to go by: Adobe's staffers probably wanted to open-source it but were held back by licensed third-party components. I haven't seen an…

> There was no sudden-change Yep, it was death by neglect rather than violence. Shockwave was much more powerful than Flash for gamedev, it had true 3D baked in and fantastic audio and video support - in 2001. IIRC lack of a timely OSX version killed it. Arguably it was the same neglect of the Flash plugin on Mac that partly caused Apple to deep-six iOS support, decimating Flash's marketshare.

Adobe knows how to milk cash cow products. They only just stopped selling Director in February 2017.

Re: Without Flash the current web tech stack might look different

#104

Post by cpeterso » Wed, Jul 19, 2017, 4:07 AM UTC

smaili wrote: post #10

One thing I recently discovered that is very cool is Adobe's Alchemy (later called FlasCC and then CrossBridge) which is able to generate SWFs from C++. Not too much documentation can be found around it but it certainly intrigued me to realize you could bring your C++ applications to the browser (assuming Flash is installed/enabled)!

Alchemy didn't take off, in part, because Adobe tried to charge Flash developers royalties to use the Alchemy and Stage3D APIs.

Re: Without Flash the current web tech stack might look different

#105

Post by fenomas » Wed, Jul 19, 2017, 4:13 AM UTC

code_duck wrote: post #94

fenomas wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This blame is misplaced. Flash was never designed for full websites and developers at the time knew that perfectly well - nobody was making a design decision to disable the back button. The reality is just that HTML in those early days was grim - IE and Netscape were making up tags willy-nilly, and any kind of interactivity or media playback was nigh-impossible to achieve without plugins. (Even for static layouts it…

Correct, nobody made the design decision to disable the back button - they did it in complete, oblivious disregard. I'm well aware of what you state and the entire point of my statements is that those decisions were wrong. The solution I would have preferred to those issues you describe is actually not that at all. It's to make simple, usable sites like the one we are currently on. As far as what you're saying about…

> The solution I would have preferred .. to make simple, usable sites like the one we are currently on

Neat, but many companies in 2004 wanted sites that couldn't be made out of styled text - minigames, product configurators, branded media experiences or whatever - and they wanted interactivity more than they wanted the back button to work. If you think they were wrong to do so that's fine, but it hasn't got much to do with Flash.

> I suppose one could research that, but it's beside any point i was making.

Its part of the point I was making - that Flash was originally a technology for inserting interactive animations into web pages, and all the significant usability concerns arose from people using it for more than that, which they did because the alternatives were so lacking. (Of course this put pressure on the alternatives to improve, which is what TFA is all about.)

Re: Without Flash the current web tech stack might look different

#106

Post by matt4077 » Wed, Jul 19, 2017, 4:20 AM UTC

lokedhs wrote: post #58

hobs wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, its great when no one can index the content, no one with disabilities can see the content, the UI follows no conventions, sounds blares at you for you to slap the monkey, and is a huge security hole! I get where you are coming from, but being snide when supporting something that was misused so badly is a bit one sided. Excel is great and has enabled millions of people to accomplish things that expensive coders…

When I read your first sentence, I honestly believed that you were describing the current, flash-less, world. I readily agree that Flash was horrible, but none of the things you mentioned has improved with the demise of Flash, at all.

Despite all the complaining, the situation today is a vast improvement over the internet ca. 2000 or so. Just a few points:

- There are four different browser engines, but no website ever asks you to install a different one (except some Google Cloud stuff tsktsktsk)

- You can develop a complex javascript application and, at the very end, discover that it works in all browsers.

- You can develop a complex javascript application

- seriously, this point needs repetition. In the past I'd spend more than half of the time trying to get something working at least in both firefox and IE, with the fix for A frequently braking B...

- websites cannot open 100 popups, maximise the window etc.

- almost all websites are usable on screens of every size (flash liked to insist on, for example, 800x600. which almost never was the right size)

- Even worse than Flash: Java Applets, Active-X. Seeing a Swing UI today is like a reunion with your childhood tormentor after you've succeeded in life and he has three marriages and a stint in jail behind him: you still have vivid memories of the pain, but it can no longer hurt you.

- Most important: Flash broke everything that makes the web a web. It was simply a delivery platform for binaries with URIs. No links, no way to spider content, access limited to the select platforms Adobe felt like supporting etc.

Re: Without Flash the current web tech stack might look different

#107

Post by merdreubu » Wed, Jul 19, 2017, 4:26 AM UTC

mortenjorck wrote: post #11

Flash was the great motivator for browser vendors to improve [their] technology Flash was the first technology to really compete with the open web. That competition (which went both ways, mind you; recall such late excesses as Flash's Text Layout Framework) ultimately made the web stronger and more versatile. It's hard to imagine what the world might look like today had that fire never been lit under the web standard…

At the same time it's not hard to imagine how much better the world would be today if Macromedia was not sold to Adobe, and Adobe was not scared into abandoning Flash by the concerted efforts of Apple, Microsoft and the web standards zealots.

Re: Without Flash the current web tech stack might look different

#108

Post by vizeroth » Wed, Jul 19, 2017, 4:26 AM UTC

fenomas wrote: post #78

theamk wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't remember the flash permissions model being problematic. I saw two main problems with flash: - it was a lightweight and compatible way to insert animated ads. The animation consumed a lot of CPU. This is why most people blocked flash, and why most Apple refused to support it on ipads. - it had horrible security record. For some reason, Adobe could not fix the bugs in the Flash plugin. This is why IT department…

> it had horrible security record I think this is overstated. Sure there were Flash 0-days, but then it was probably also the highest-value 0-day target in the world. In those days Flash was more widely installed than any single browser, or even OS. It may well have been the most widely-installed application period. The point being, if Flash was inherently horrible for security (in some way that, say, Java wasn't) th…

Just because no one managed to create WannaCry for Flash doesn't mean the security problems are overstated. They've published over 50 vulnerabilities in Flash this year, when the installed base is in the toilet.

Java may be worse (or it may not be, but I would avoid installing either on most client machines), but blowing a bigger hole in the system's defenses doesn't really make the slightly smaller hole any less of a problem, it just changes your priorities in patching.

The only thing impressive about Adobe's security record is the number of times their source code was compromised.

Re: Without Flash the current web tech stack might look different

#109

Post by rsync » Wed, Jul 19, 2017, 4:37 AM UTC

dyarosla wrote: post #13

I think what Flash (the program) really excelled at was giving creators the ability to draw, animate and program interactive objects, all wrapped in a single neat package . I would contest that no other software, even today, has come close to being able to do these three so seamlessly at once (Really, I encourage you to try to name one!) Sure, when it came down to it you can say it had poor performance, security, fil…

"Really, I encourage you to try to name one!"

HyperCard.

Re: Without Flash the current web tech stack might look different

#110

Post by pjmlp » Wed, Jul 19, 2017, 4:48 AM UTC

m-j-fox wrote: post #19

dyarosla wrote: post #13

I think what Flash (the program) really excelled at was giving creators the ability to draw, animate and program interactive objects, all wrapped in a single neat package . I would contest that no other software, even today, has come close to being able to do these three so seamlessly at once (Really, I encourage you to try to name one!) Sure, when it came down to it you can say it had poor performance, security, fil…

I think security was not fixable, at-least not to the user's and browsers liking. You had to disable flash for safety and stopping the most annoying ads. The other issues could be left to consenting adults. But browsers and IT departments turned against plugins in general. Now even Java is almost gone (from browsers) for the same reason.

They will be back, just let WebAssembly mature.