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Without Flash the current web tech stack might look different

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Re: Without Flash the current web tech stack might look different

#81

Post by dyarosla »

jnbiche wrote: post #66
dyarosla wrote: post #13

I think what Flash (the program) really excelled at was giving creators the ability to draw, animate and program interactive objects, all wrapped in a single neat package . I would contest that no other software, even today, has come close to being able to do these three so seamlessly at once (Really, I encourage you to try to name one!) Sure, when it came down to it you can say it had poor performance, security, fil…

> Really, I encourage you to try to name one! The CreateJS suite covers most, if not all, of what Flash could do in JavaScript. In fact, it is the library used by Adobe Animate professional to export Flash programs to HTML5 target. It may not be as user-friendly, but it's as comprehensive.

CreateJS is not an integrated digital art, animation and coding tool. It is a set of programming libraries that can program these things.

Re: Without Flash the current web tech stack might look different

#82

Post by cakedoggie »

dingo_bat wrote: post #47
jugg1es wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Flash is a security nightmare. It's a 3rd party application that opens up the device up directly into the OS if compromised. Jobs blocked it because it would make iPhone vulnerable to attacks they couldn't control. I don't blame him for blocking it honestly, even though it meant we had totally change tech stacks.

Also, Jobs probably realized flash apps could circumvent his app store model.

This is just silly, jobs allowed and even pushed web apps. You can just as easily circumvent the app store with web apps.

Re: Without Flash the current web tech stack might look different

#83

Post by code_duck »

lokedhs wrote: post #58
hobs wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, its great when no one can index the content, no one with disabilities can see the content, the UI follows no conventions, sounds blares at you for you to slap the monkey, and is a huge security hole! I get where you are coming from, but being snide when supporting something that was misused so badly is a bit one sided. Excel is great and has enabled millions of people to accomplish things that expensive coders…

When I read your first sentence, I honestly believed that you were describing the current, flash-less, world. I readily agree that Flash was horrible, but none of the things you mentioned has improved with the demise of Flash, at all.

When I read some of these comments, i get the feeling people aren't aware of the extent of the technical shortcomings of flash circa 2005.

Of course indexing has improved since the demise of flash, compared to the heyday of flash. Flash contained all text in an unindexable binary blob.

Accessibility was very poor since, again, flash prevented the use of any browser features for that without offering its own.

Flash was also a leading security hole for years.

Re: Without Flash the current web tech stack might look different

#84

Post by DaiPlusPlus »

devdoomari wrote: post #9
lsmarigo wrote: post #6

Not just flash, I'm a die-hard fireworks user and was still using it up until a few years ago, much better than PS for quick web stuff (99% of what I was doing). Was a sad day for consumers when Adobe bough them out, before they had to compete with improvements and new features for market share. I still use Adobe Fireworks regularly over Photoshop.

how does adobe fireworks compare to adobe illustrator?

Are you thinking of Macromedia FreeHand? FreeHand was a vector art editor to compete with Adobe Illustrator.

Macromedia Fireworks was a raster editor like Photoshop, but was heavily geared towards "web graphics" (think: Adobe ImageReady). It had neat features such as text templating, integation with Dreamweaver, and decent sub-pixel positioning. I used it from 2001 until 2005. I felt it was primarily for making websites using now-obsolete techniques like tables-for-layout, spacer.gif, and using heavily manually-optimized graphics and techniques to achieve effects that CSS was not yet capable of. I may be wrong, but I don't believe Fireworks changed much since the Adobe acquisition, ensuring its declining relevance in the post-CSS3 web world.

Re: Without Flash the current web tech stack might look different

#85

Post by amatecha »

Keyframe wrote: post #67
amatecha wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, before Flash was around, there was HyperCard (and in fact ActionScript is derived from HyperTalk, the scripting language used in HyperCard). If you're not familiar, definitely take a look. It's also somewhat of a precursor to the WWW :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HyperCard

Everyone who was around the time MYST came along knows what HyperCard is! :)

haha, indeed! I remember trying to open the Ages in HyperCard and edit them and/or discover how they worked.

Last year, I had the awesome fortune of meeting Rand Miller and got to chat with him a bit about HyperCard and how they used it for Myst. Though, I barely remember what we discussed because I was so excited to meet him, hahaha :'D

Re: Without Flash the current web tech stack might look different

#87

Post by fenomas »

theamk wrote: post #34
m-j-fox wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think security was not fixable, at-least not to the user's and browsers liking. You had to disable flash for safety and stopping the most annoying ads. The other issues could be left to consenting adults. But browsers and IT departments turned against plugins in general. Now even Java is almost gone (from browsers) for the same reason.

I have a feeling that if Adobe would publish detailed Flash file format specs when Flash started to decline, there would have been separate player implementations and Flash might still be alive today. Of course, this also means alternative editor implementations, and this decreases business value. This is also a lot of work. And at some point, it became too late -- if format would be published today, very few people…

The SWF format has been open since 2008.

Here's the current spec (PDF):

http://wwwimages.adobe.com/content/dam/Adobe/en/devnet/swf/p...

(edit: removing a now-obsolete comment wondering why I'd been downvoted)

Re: Without Flash the current web tech stack might look different

#88

Post by detaro »

TsomArp wrote: post #44
freehunter wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Similarly, Visual Basic. Has anything since allowed non-programmers to build a GUI as easily as that? Just drag and drop, then double click the button and follow the on-screen prompts to glue it all together. It gets a lot of shit from real developers, but what can match it?

Delphi.

And it's Open Source "brother", Lazarus.

Re: Without Flash the current web tech stack might look different

#89

Post by code_duck »

cakedoggie wrote: post #82
dingo_bat wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, Jobs probably realized flash apps could circumvent his app store model.

This is just silly, jobs allowed and even pushed web apps. You can just as easily circumvent the app store with web apps.

They forbid language runtimes. Sure, web apps are allowed, but nothing else is if it's freely programmable, including other browser engines.

Re: Without Flash the current web tech stack might look different

#90

Post by neovive »

dyarosla wrote: post #13

I think what Flash (the program) really excelled at was giving creators the ability to draw, animate and program interactive objects, all wrapped in a single neat package . I would contest that no other software, even today, has come close to being able to do these three so seamlessly at once (Really, I encourage you to try to name one!) Sure, when it came down to it you can say it had poor performance, security, fil…

I totally agree. My first tech job at a startup, around the time of the dotcom boom, was for an early streaming radio application that used Flash to deliver ads in a local desktop player. Flash was a simple, but empowering, tool.

The ubiquity of the Flash player transformed the Internet into a true entertainment platform. Prior to Flash, technologies like RealAudio/Video, Quicktime, and animated gifs were clunky and couldn't compete with traditional media. With Flash came the first high-quality, streaming, web cartoons/animations; web games; and eventually Youtube (after the release of the FLV format). Flash should be recognized as a true innovation that paved the way for the modern web. The modern web stack of JS, HTML5 Video/Audio, SVG has finally caught up, but I don't think we'll ever see such seamless integration and power in one tool (for better or worse).

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