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Without Flash the current web tech stack might look different

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Re: Without Flash the current web tech stack might look different

#51

Post by theamk »

freehunter wrote: post #30
StillBored wrote: post #12

The question is, do any of the existing web stacks come close to the beginner friendly aspects of the original flash? I don't think so.. I can imagine any of my musician friends installing $FRAMEWORK and building a web site full of their own animations, menu's, and music playback.. Flash for all its "evilness" still IMHO hasn't been matched.

Similarly, Visual Basic. Has anything since allowed non-programmers to build a GUI as easily as that? Just drag and drop, then double click the button and follow the on-screen prompts to glue it all together. It gets a lot of shit from real developers, but what can match it?

C#

Re: Without Flash the current web tech stack might look different

#52

Post by mikewhy »

dyarosla wrote: post #13

I think what Flash (the program) really excelled at was giving creators the ability to draw, animate and program interactive objects, all wrapped in a single neat package . I would contest that no other software, even today, has come close to being able to do these three so seamlessly at once (Really, I encourage you to try to name one!) Sure, when it came down to it you can say it had poor performance, security, fil…

Hype[0] is really good at the first two. We had short time to develop an animation for a site and I was shocked at how easy it was to use, integrate, and scale from mobile to desktop.

Though I've got nothing to suggest for the interactivity part.

[0]: http://tumult.com/hype/

Re: Without Flash the current web tech stack might look different

#53

Post by dangerbird2 »

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #23
jugg1es wrote: post #7

I feel as though the author missed talking about Flex, which really took flash to the next level. It was short-lived, as it came a few years before the end of Flash-as-we-know-it when Steve Jobs decided to block it - but it was a great way to build sophisticated SPA's before the javascript ecosystem was able to catch up. Thanks Flash!

it came a few years before the end of Flash-as-we-know-it when Steve Jobs decided to block it I forgot about that. Does anyone have any info about this? I didn't pay much attention at the time, but in retrospect it seems like it was one of the main reasons everyone stopped using flash. Did Adobe try to get Steve to pay a licensing fee, or was he just inherently against implementing flash? The excuse Steve made at the…

> Did Adobe try to get Steve to pay a licensing fee, or was he just inherently against implementing flash?

Aside from security issues others have mentioned, Early iPhones employed HTML5 as the only 3rd party app API: no flash, no java, not even native Objective C apps. The only reason Apple opened up the Cocoa API to 3rd party developers was because HTML at that time was insufficient for powerful offline experiences (only recently has tools like services workers made deploying offline apps via browser HTML possible). Many would argue Apple's exclusive embrace of modern HTML on its phone was pretty helpful in ensuring HTML5's success accross all platforms.

Re: Without Flash the current web tech stack might look different

#54

Post by dyarosla »

amatecha wrote: post #35
dyarosla wrote: post #13

I think what Flash (the program) really excelled at was giving creators the ability to draw, animate and program interactive objects, all wrapped in a single neat package . I would contest that no other software, even today, has come close to being able to do these three so seamlessly at once (Really, I encourage you to try to name one!) Sure, when it came down to it you can say it had poor performance, security, fil…

Well, before Flash was around, there was HyperCard (and in fact ActionScript is derived from HyperTalk, the scripting language used in HyperCard). If you're not familiar, definitely take a look. It's also somewhat of a precursor to the WWW :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HyperCard

I'm sure Flash took many ideas for HyperCard, and HyperCard was definitely ahead of its time in many ways as well.

The interesting thing is, the most comparable environment I can think of today to Flash is Scratch, as it is a drawing, animation and programming tool all in one.

Of course, as the goals of Scratch mostly lean towards being a kids learn-to-program tool, all three parts are much, much, much simpler.

Re: Without Flash the current web tech stack might look different

#55

Post by nikofeyn »

dyarosla wrote: post #27
npgatech wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Processing, especially the javascript library is ready to go on HTML canvas.

You can't draw or animate in processing. You can program lines and shapes and animations, but that's hardly comparable.

i know nothing of creating things using flash. can you link a good resource that gets at what you are describing? i am familiar with and have used processing though.

Re: Without Flash the current web tech stack might look different

#56

Post by dyarosla »

mikewhy wrote: post #52
dyarosla wrote: post #13

I think what Flash (the program) really excelled at was giving creators the ability to draw, animate and program interactive objects, all wrapped in a single neat package . I would contest that no other software, even today, has come close to being able to do these three so seamlessly at once (Really, I encourage you to try to name one!) Sure, when it came down to it you can say it had poor performance, security, fil…

Hype[0] is really good at the first two. We had short time to develop an animation for a site and I was shocked at how easy it was to use, integrate, and scale from mobile to desktop. Though I've got nothing to suggest for the interactivity part. [0]: http://tumult.com/hype/

Cool! It does look like you can hook in javascript in there, so they do have that going for it.

Re: Without Flash the current web tech stack might look different

#57

Post by nikofeyn »

freehunter wrote: post #30
StillBored wrote: post #12

The question is, do any of the existing web stacks come close to the beginner friendly aspects of the original flash? I don't think so.. I can imagine any of my musician friends installing $FRAMEWORK and building a web site full of their own animations, menu's, and music playback.. Flash for all its "evilness" still IMHO hasn't been matched.

Similarly, Visual Basic. Has anything since allowed non-programmers to build a GUI as easily as that? Just drag and drop, then double click the button and follow the on-screen prompts to glue it all together. It gets a lot of shit from real developers, but what can match it?

creating a gui in labview is pretty trivial.

Re: Without Flash the current web tech stack might look different

#58

Post by lokedhs »

hobs wrote: post #46
BatFastard wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, lets condemn everyone who creates easy to use and powerful tools! I think everyone prefers pain in the ass tools and don't do much, this is the best way to protect the holy order of coders. Long live shitty tools!!!

Yeah, its great when no one can index the content, no one with disabilities can see the content, the UI follows no conventions, sounds blares at you for you to slap the monkey, and is a huge security hole! I get where you are coming from, but being snide when supporting something that was misused so badly is a bit one sided. Excel is great and has enabled millions of people to accomplish things that expensive coders…

When I read your first sentence, I honestly believed that you were describing the current, flash-less, world.

I readily agree that Flash was horrible, but none of the things you mentioned has improved with the demise of Flash, at all.

Re: Without Flash the current web tech stack might look different

#59

Post by kbenson »

dingo_bat wrote: post #47
jugg1es wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Flash is a security nightmare. It's a 3rd party application that opens up the device up directly into the OS if compromised. Jobs blocked it because it would make iPhone vulnerable to attacks they couldn't control. I don't blame him for blocking it honestly, even though it meant we had totally change tech stacks.

Also, Jobs probably realized flash apps could circumvent his app store model.

The app store wasn't opened until just over a year after the original iphone release (a day before the 3GS was available). Initially, you were supposed to build "web 2.0" apps using the safari engine. Flash didn't work then either.

Re: Without Flash the current web tech stack might look different

#60

Post by Laforet »

dyarosla wrote: post #26
m-j-fox wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think security was not fixable, at-least not to the user's and browsers liking. You had to disable flash for safety and stopping the most annoying ads. The other issues could be left to consenting adults. But browsers and IT departments turned against plugins in general. Now even Java is almost gone (from browsers) for the same reason.

I think Flash screwed up security because of the way users could control what Flash had access to (through a Security Sandbox Controller on the Macromedia/Adobe website) Imagine that instead Flash went the way of App Permissions: asking users for permission to access, read, and write different things to the browser. Could you imagine? Advertisers wouldn't be able to pull as many annoying/shady things, and security wo…

Madobe once closely guarded the Flash player code base, yet their approach rapidly shifted to total abandonment in the early 2010s after realising that the chance to have a presence on modern smartphones had already sailed. All the issues that followed were symptoms of neglect.

A similar lack of comittment is also what doomed AIR which had a chance to succeed - after all there was a tonne of existing content waiting to be ported for native release by eager developers already familiar with the AS/Flex stack. Adobe dropped the ball hard by moving the R&D to Bangalore during the most critical time period and things went south really fast. By the time the product managed to stablise most developers have moved on.

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