Without Flash the current web tech stack might look different • Hacker News Board

Re: Without Flash the current web tech stack might look different

#31

Post by lowbloodsugar » Wed, Jul 19, 2017, 1:19 AM UTC

dyarosla wrote: post #26

m-j-fox wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think security was not fixable, at-least not to the user's and browsers liking. You had to disable flash for safety and stopping the most annoying ads. The other issues could be left to consenting adults. But browsers and IT departments turned against plugins in general. Now even Java is almost gone (from browsers) for the same reason.

I think Flash screwed up security because of the way users could control what Flash had access to (through a Security Sandbox Controller on the Macromedia/Adobe website) Imagine that instead Flash went the way of App Permissions: asking users for permission to access, read, and write different things to the browser. Could you imagine? Advertisers wouldn't be able to pull as many annoying/shady things, and security wo…

Wasn't the problem was zero day exploits in the flash player?

Re: Without Flash the current web tech stack might look different

#32

Post by kbenson » Wed, Jul 19, 2017, 1:19 AM UTC

BatFastard wrote: post #24

code_duck wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The authoring software was user friendly but sites made that way were atrocious in terms of usability in every way possible. Slow loading and also everything else about a browser didn't work as expected - bookmarking, back button, cut and paste, open in new window were all broken in flash sites. I don't think that it's laudable to create a tool that empowers beginners to create useless and difficult websites.

Indeed, lets condemn everyone who creates easy to use and powerful tools! I think everyone prefers pain in the ass tools and don't do much, this is the best way to protect the holy order of coders. Long live shitty tools!!!

> Indeed, lets condemn everyone who creates easy to use and powerful tools!

Easy to use, powerful and proprietary. As a consumer, flash sites were often horrible. Get a few minutes into using it, find out that there's a bug keeping you from advancing any farther in exploration and your task, so you need to reload. Oh good, you have to start from scratch again because it's not actually using URLs to keep track of your location. Want to know how to find a manual on a manufacturer's site? Oh, good, they used flash, so their site isn't indexed correctly by any search engines, and you have to navigate their poor idea of what made a good UI in 1995.

Flash was good for media delivery. For everything else, it just broke how the web was expected to work.

Re: Without Flash the current web tech stack might look different

#33

Post by lsmarigo » Wed, Jul 19, 2017, 1:20 AM UTC

devdoomari wrote: post #9

lsmarigo wrote: post #6

Not just flash, I'm a die-hard fireworks user and was still using it up until a few years ago, much better than PS for quick web stuff (99% of what I was doing). Was a sad day for consumers when Adobe bough them out, before they had to compete with improvements and new features for market share. I still use Adobe Fireworks regularly over Photoshop.

how does adobe fireworks compare to adobe illustrator?

different use cases, illustrator is better for heavy vector based stuff like logo design but for quick/fast hack jobs fireworks is best.

Re: Without Flash the current web tech stack might look different

#34

Post by theamk » Wed, Jul 19, 2017, 1:21 AM UTC

m-j-fox wrote: post #19

dyarosla wrote: post #13

I think what Flash (the program) really excelled at was giving creators the ability to draw, animate and program interactive objects, all wrapped in a single neat package . I would contest that no other software, even today, has come close to being able to do these three so seamlessly at once (Really, I encourage you to try to name one!) Sure, when it came down to it you can say it had poor performance, security, fil…

I think security was not fixable, at-least not to the user's and browsers liking. You had to disable flash for safety and stopping the most annoying ads. The other issues could be left to consenting adults. But browsers and IT departments turned against plugins in general. Now even Java is almost gone (from browsers) for the same reason.

I have a feeling that if Adobe would publish detailed Flash file format specs when Flash started to decline, there would have been separate player implementations and Flash might still be alive today.

Of course, this also means alternative editor implementations, and this decreases business value. This is also a lot of work. And at some point, it became too late -- if format would be published today, very few people would care. So I am not surprised Adobe decided to let the Flash die, rather than open it.

Re: Without Flash the current web tech stack might look different

#35

Post by amatecha » Wed, Jul 19, 2017, 1:21 AM UTC

dyarosla wrote: post #13

I think what Flash (the program) really excelled at was giving creators the ability to draw, animate and program interactive objects, all wrapped in a single neat package . I would contest that no other software, even today, has come close to being able to do these three so seamlessly at once (Really, I encourage you to try to name one!) Sure, when it came down to it you can say it had poor performance, security, fil…

Well, before Flash was around, there was HyperCard (and in fact ActionScript is derived from HyperTalk, the scripting language used in HyperCard). If you're not familiar, definitely take a look. It's also somewhat of a precursor to the WWW :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HyperCard

Re: Without Flash the current web tech stack might look different

#36

Post by dieterrams » Wed, Jul 19, 2017, 1:21 AM UTC

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #23

jugg1es wrote: post #7

I feel as though the author missed talking about Flex, which really took flash to the next level. It was short-lived, as it came a few years before the end of Flash-as-we-know-it when Steve Jobs decided to block it - but it was a great way to build sophisticated SPA's before the javascript ecosystem was able to catch up. Thanks Flash!

it came a few years before the end of Flash-as-we-know-it when Steve Jobs decided to block it I forgot about that. Does anyone have any info about this? I didn't pay much attention at the time, but in retrospect it seems like it was one of the main reasons everyone stopped using flash. Did Adobe try to get Steve to pay a licensing fee, or was he just inherently against implementing flash? The excuse Steve made at the…

Combo of poor performance and battery usage.

I'm sure the unstated reasons included that it generally made for poor UX across the web.

Re: Without Flash the current web tech stack might look different

#37

Post by dyarosla » Wed, Jul 19, 2017, 1:21 AM UTC

code_duck wrote: post #18

StillBored wrote: post #12

The question is, do any of the existing web stacks come close to the beginner friendly aspects of the original flash? I don't think so.. I can imagine any of my musician friends installing $FRAMEWORK and building a web site full of their own animations, menu's, and music playback.. Flash for all its "evilness" still IMHO hasn't been matched.

The authoring software was user friendly but sites made that way were atrocious in terms of usability in every way possible. Slow loading and also everything else about a browser didn't work as expected - bookmarking, back button, cut and paste, open in new window were all broken in flash sites. I don't think that it's laudable to create a tool that empowers beginners to create useless and difficult websites.

As a counterargument, look at the state of the web today without Flash. Many websites are still bloated, still slow to load, still hijack the back button, still mess with copy and paste, still force same-window-only opening. So was Flash really the issue?

Re: Without Flash the current web tech stack might look different

#38

Post by rodorgas » Wed, Jul 19, 2017, 1:22 AM UTC

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #23

jugg1es wrote: post #7

I feel as though the author missed talking about Flex, which really took flash to the next level. It was short-lived, as it came a few years before the end of Flash-as-we-know-it when Steve Jobs decided to block it - but it was a great way to build sophisticated SPA's before the javascript ecosystem was able to catch up. Thanks Flash!

it came a few years before the end of Flash-as-we-know-it when Steve Jobs decided to block it I forgot about that. Does anyone have any info about this? I didn't pay much attention at the time, but in retrospect it seems like it was one of the main reasons everyone stopped using flash. Did Adobe try to get Steve to pay a licensing fee, or was he just inherently against implementing flash? The excuse Steve made at the…

Steve Jobs detailed his reasons on the open letter Thoughts on Flash (https://www.apple.com/hotnews/thoughts-on-flash/).

Re: Without Flash the current web tech stack might look different

#39

Post by original_idea » Wed, Jul 19, 2017, 1:23 AM UTC

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #23

jugg1es wrote: post #7

I feel as though the author missed talking about Flex, which really took flash to the next level. It was short-lived, as it came a few years before the end of Flash-as-we-know-it when Steve Jobs decided to block it - but it was a great way to build sophisticated SPA's before the javascript ecosystem was able to catch up. Thanks Flash!

it came a few years before the end of Flash-as-we-know-it when Steve Jobs decided to block it I forgot about that. Does anyone have any info about this? I didn't pay much attention at the time, but in retrospect it seems like it was one of the main reasons everyone stopped using flash. Did Adobe try to get Steve to pay a licensing fee, or was he just inherently against implementing flash? The excuse Steve made at the…

Horrible performance on the iPhone/iPad. Killed the battery. And security risks.

Re: Without Flash the current web tech stack might look different

#40

Post by danso » Wed, Jul 19, 2017, 1:24 AM UTC

I did pretty well for myself building galleries and interactives in Flash and Actionscript; it was not just a good learning experience, but a more stress-free implementation compared to getting JavaScript to work cross-browser. I was still doing AS work into 2009. For me, it wasn't the inevitable obsolescence from iOS that caused me to quit, but an Edward Tufte seminar in which I saw that static visualization could be just as compelling as interactive ones, and a lot easier for end users to figure out.