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Andy Grove: How To Make An American Job Before It's Too Late

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Re: Andy Grove: How To Make An American Job Before It's Too Late

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may not be a zero sum game but there is a limit to the number of people that can be employed doing purely intellectual work. I expect that eventually we'll see more and more manual jobs displaced by automation and that the population as a whole will drop because the demand for labor isn't there. Either that or we'll see increasingly large slum classes like in Brazil. The efficiency of global markets will push the…

How is this true? 100 years ago there was virtually nobody employed doing purely intellectual work, yet this has grown to be a huge labor market. Your ideas here kind of trail off to be "The Bell Curve"-ish. Many of these "unskilled laborers" will instead find work in service industries and the arts. For an HN-geared example: look at what Ruby on Rails, Django, etc has done for web development. It allows web develope…

There may be a net gain of IP jobs in the future but are we going to find anywhere close to 5 billion of them? Service jobs will decline over time too as more and more of them are automated out of existence. When was the last time you actually went into a bank? The number of people making a real living in the arts will remain very small.

The optimistic scenario is that world population self-regulates down over time as more manual work is automated and a larger fraction of the population moves into intellectual work. The more pessimistic scenario is that the underclass population explodes into poverty and anarchy and eventually brings the affluent elites down with it.

Re: Andy Grove: How To Make An American Job Before It's Too Late

#52
It's interesting to hear this from Andy Grove. Intel of the 1990s was constantly being called out as an abusive workplace, exploiting H1B and "home grown" engineers, then laying them off when they got too old and sending their work overseas. Although I agree with most of his essay, I'm not sure I would want to be an employee in whatever scheme he is envisioning.

Re: Andy Grove: How To Make An American Job Before It's Too Late

#53

Andy makes an excellent point: when we outsource the manufacturing and scaling processes to another country, what we lose in addition to jobs are the innovations and experience necessary to maintain a strong defensive econosystem with respect to our economy. However, I disagree with Andy's recommendation that we should tax offshore labor - we should focus on making labor in the United States less expensive. Neuter th…

What he's saying is we've lost the ability to compete in the current manufacturing game. But that is Manufacturing 1.0. Manufacturing 2.0 incorporates environmental and social standards and companies who don't operate along those principles should be taxed.

Re: Andy Grove: How To Make An American Job Before It's Too Late

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's a valid point, but it will quickly devolve into an argument as to where the robots should be built. It still won't magically add any objective value to your product just to have the nuts and bolts tightened in your hometown.

You're confusing a capital investment (the robots) with cost-of-goods-sold (the widgets). Automated manufacturing systems are complex systems that require highly trained individuals to maintain and operate, while reducing the total labor cost. In addition, if more manufacturing utilized these systems, scales of economy could be reached that would allow them to be more modular and commoditized.

Automated manufacturing systems are complex systems that require highly trained individuals to maintain and operate, while reducing the total labor cost.

For now.

Also, keep in mind that everything I said about it being economically undesirable to employ human labor in production goes out the window when there are a billion workers available who have nowhere to go but up. There is no (natural) law that says that our robots will be any more economical than low-cost Chinese workers, even though they might be more economical than high-cost American workers.

Re: Andy Grove: How To Make An American Job Before It's Too Late

#55

Andy makes an excellent point: when we outsource the manufacturing and scaling processes to another country, what we lose in addition to jobs are the innovations and experience necessary to maintain a strong defensive econosystem with respect to our economy. However, I disagree with Andy's recommendation that we should tax offshore labor - we should focus on making labor in the United States less expensive. Neuter th…

What he's saying is we've lost the ability to compete in the current manufacturing game. But that is Manufacturing 1.0.

We need to create and become the leaders of Manufacturing 2.0 which incorporates environmental and social externalities. Companies who don't operate along these principles should be taxed and those monies put toward continuously improving global standards.

Re: Andy Grove: How To Make An American Job Before It's Too Late

#56

Andy makes an excellent point: when we outsource the manufacturing and scaling processes to another country, what we lose in addition to jobs are the innovations and experience necessary to maintain a strong defensive econosystem with respect to our economy. However, I disagree with Andy's recommendation that we should tax offshore labor - we should focus on making labor in the United States less expensive. Neuter th…

You can not make labor in the US as cheap as it is in China because if you did they would not be able to afford food.

Re: Andy Grove: How To Make An American Job Before It's Too Late

#57

The real elephant in the room, which Grove and practically everybody else knows very well but refuses to talk about, is that nobody starts a company to employ people. People start a company to make stuff . To the extent this can be done with fewer people, this is always a good thing from that company's perspective, with no exceptions I can think of offhand. People suck, and you don't want to deal with them if you can…

great comment!

btw, do you ever think we'll reach a point where it will be common to have 99.9%+ automated factories? (robotic, possibly even full input/output lifecyle & distribution, etc.)

Re: Andy Grove: How To Make An American Job Before It's Too Late

#58
There's another proposed solution to this problem in the form of tax reform - The Fair Tax proposal.

IANA Tax Expert, but I like how they've completely rethought the tax system from the ground up, with the objective of making the US a tax haven for all parts of the manufacturing process - harvesting raw materials, milling into useful materials, manufacturing into products, transport, and sales.

In a nutshell, there are 'embedded taxes' at every point in the manufacturing chain. Take a simplified semiconductor for example, made of sand, aluminum, and copper:

1. Mine the copper and aluminum, collect the sand (payroll + income + other taxes)

2. Purify it all, mill the copper and aluminum (payroll + income + other taxes)

3. Deliver to fabrication facilities (tax the transport company)

4. Convert sand to silicon wafers, etch the microprocessors into the wafers with the copper and aluminum, package into chips. (more taxes)

5. Transport to OEMs (tax the transport company)

6. Build computers (more taxes)

7. FedEx/UPS to purchaser (more taxes).

The consumer ends up paying multiple embedded taxes in the final cost of the product. The Fair Tax folks estimate that these embedded taxes comprise roughly 22% of the cost of the average product manufactured in the US.

The Fair Tax would instead remove all the embedded taxes and add them in one lump sum to the final product:

1. Mine the copper and aluminum, collect the sand (no tax)

2. Purify it all, mill the copper and aluminum (no tax)

3. Deliver to fabrication facilities (no tax)

4. Convert sand to silicon wafers, etch the microprocessors into the wafers with the copper and aluminum, package into chips. (no tax)

5. Transport to OEMs (no tax)

6. Build computers (no tax)

7. FedEx/UPS to purchaser (no tax).

8. Consumer pays 23% tax (calculated inclusively, 30% calculated exclusively) on the final product.

The final cost to the US consumer is roughly the same, but the incentives are drastically realigned. It becomes much less expensive to make things in the US, and they are only taxed when sold in the US. Products exported overseas would be tax-free to make and sell (except for taxes in the foreign countries).

The concept potentially solves all sorts of problems, from our trade balance to illegal immigrants not paying taxes. Definitely worth reading more about for anyone interested:

http://www.fairtax.org/

http://www.amazon.com/FairTax-Answering-Critics-Neal-Boortz/...

http://www.amazon.com/FairTax-Solution-Financial-Justice-Ame...

Re: Andy Grove: How To Make An American Job Before It's Too Late

#59
I find this line of thinking very disturbing. Mr. Grove follows others in believing a common fallacy, by ignoring secondary effects, and fails to see how issues in macroeconomics affect each other. Where to start...

The American standard of living is higher than China. In order for a worker in the US to continue to enjoy his standard of living and salary, she must contribute to creating something of value equal to what she consumes that is then exchanged at a market price(which determines it's value relative to goods/services created by others). When the US is a leader in technology and innovation, we create things that are very valuable, because rare and productive people make them, and trade them for other, largely commoditized goods, from poorer countries. The reason these commoditized goods are produced in poorer countries is because they can... The ability to produce them is well known so there is more competition, and therefor demand, and the price drops, along with the wages. If you work in a factory cheaply, you do so because replacing your skills in that factory is easy. There are many other people with that set of skills to replace you. The value you produce is cheaper, therefor you are paid less and have less to consume .

Now, back to Mr. Grove's statements. The factory jobs left the United States because wages were higher here than there. It's that simple, but where he goes wrong is say that "managers were happy", which is not quite as harsh, but very close to the usual line, which attributes the offshoring to "greed". Not quite. If an American company has to produce it's goods in a factory where people make 2x the salary of the same good in China, the goods will cost more to buy. If the American company, doesn't outsource, and a Chinese company is able to produce the same or similar good(think commodity again), then they will be undercut in the market and go out of business. Not only will management be un-"happy", but the US as a whole is worse off because the profits now go to a Chinese company instead of an American one. The US has now lost not only the manufacturing jobs, but the high value add jobs as well. Mr. Groves proposes the "solution" that we tax imports and use the proceeds promote American production. This merely shifts the money around. Those imported goods were cheaper than their American counterpart. Assuming current wages remain the same, it now cost more dollars to purchase that good because of the tariff and American's have less stuff because it is more expensive relative to their salary. The other option(without the tariff), is that the American factory worker cannot find other work that will pay him more, so he agrees to accept lower wages for performing that same job here and can therefor buy less stuff. I believe that these, as a whole, offset one another and are probably net a wash.

As for unemployment, I believe that it is caused by many different things, probably many reasons that are poorly understood, but I'll address a few of them that I think are important here. Unemployment can be caused by temporary mismatches between market demands for goods and supply of those goods. Demand changes, prices change, companies don't require as many employees to produce the goods(this can also be caused by changes in the efficiency of production), and people are fired. There may not be a job in their previous line of work. If there is some other skill set which is in demand, that person can learn a new skill and make whatever salary the market demand supports for that skill. It is also possible that the market will not support the workers previous salary. Labor costs go down, but here is where people usually go wrong. When labor costs drop, it becomes affordable to pay people to do things that you might have automated(for a high cost in machinery or software for example). Or, the market might now support the cost of producing a good which must be done with tedious manual labor. Or, if the American worker is more efficient than his Chinese counterpart, then it might be cheaper to start doing manufacturing in the US again. In other words, as wages drop, the unemployment rate will go down, and less will be outsourced. This is just the tradeoff. The fact that jobs are sent to China means that cheaper goods are available here in the US. Mr. Groves states that the trend is towards an economy where there are high value add jobs and high unemployment. This is true only if current wages hold. If wages drop, then outsourcing makes less sense and unemployment picks up. What we really want is lots of high value add jobs here. This comes through innovation, creativity, a highly skilled and motivated workforce and outsourcing production(if it makes sense) to cheaper markets.

Re: Andy Grove: How To Make An American Job Before It's Too Late

#60
post #46

Due to Globalization, America will be saturated and will be inhabited by people who will live on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_income

When I read your sentence, right before I got to the very end with the link to Wikipedia, I was thinking you were going to end it with something like "soylent green."
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