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Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

bbc.com

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Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#281

Post by stordoff »

ajarmst wrote: post #89
ajarmst wrote: post #83

Reminded me of the very sad story of Peter Verhulsel: http://www.upi.com/Archives/1984/11/12/Scuba-diver-lost-in-c...

I'm a qualified advanced recreational diver, and most diving by properly-trained (not 'quick tutorial at the dock' like a lot of tourists get) divers has a very manageable level of risk, even at altitude or under ice. Cave diving and mixture diving (esp. in overhead environments like the Andrea Doria) is well beyond my personal acceptable-risk horizon, but most of the people who go there are extremely experienced, we…

What level of tuition should tourist divers be getting? I've only been diving a few times, and we were given (what felt like) a reasonable amount of safety briefings before even travelling to the dive site. IIRC the deepest we went was 12-13m (third dive with the same crew; first two were sub-10m), and I was under the impression (thought I'm __far__ from being an expert!) that it was difficult to cause any major problems at those depths unless you do it all the way the wrong way (i.e. fast/direct ascent to surface).

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#282

Post by test1235 »

irrational wrote: post #244
laumars wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on the kid, their age and their relationship with their father. I don't think there is any right generalized answer. With my kids I know they would rather have me around, but they are young so I'm already "superman" to them. Who knows how our relationship will change as they grow older.

As they go through their teenage years you will get stupider and lamer in their eyes. Then sometime after they move out they will realize that you are actually quite intelligent and will, at some point, apologize for being an ass and tell you that they are proud of you. At least that was my experience with my parents and has been my experience with my kids so far.

Again, that is a generalization. Being a father doesn't automatically make a person intelligent or good.

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#283

Post by stordoff »

tysonrdm wrote: post #7

There should be a law against bringing in and leaving nylon ropes in the cave. If this continues, all the caves are going to be filled with nylons ropes left by previous divers. Do we want these caves, too, to eventually become a garbage dumping ground?

I'd've thought that the majority of these locations will only be being accessed by cave divers, who have a vested interest in A) having the ropes there as a safety mechanism and B) not leaving unnecessary lines in place to avoid confusion. Not my field, but it sounds like the sort of problem that will be self-policing.

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#284

Post by castis »

Chris2048 wrote: post #95
castis wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't mention anything about the central topic of the article; the man who was stuck in the cave. If they had any sort of emotional reaction to the article, I imagine they would have said something about it.

I understand. My point is, why do they need an emotional reaction?

They don't, no one does, but any one of the three things I listed would have most likely caused someone to contribute something useful to the conversation.

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#285

Post by jamra »

curun1r wrote: post #251
jonahx wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you just asked them, in all their ignorance, you're undoubtedly right. If you asked the children who chose the adventurous dad after he had died pursuing his passion, nearly 100% would trade the world to reverse that choice.

Your hypothetical survey method has a literal survivorship bias (and a statistical one...you're not asking the children of parents that took risks and didn't die). Looking at risk the way you're looking at it is a recipe for wasting your life. The better way to think of it is like the way that poker players look at their decision making...don't be outcome oriented. There's a logical, statistical way to do this and it…

This reads like the most sophistic argument to the point he was trying to make. The diver was a cave diver, not a regular scuba diver. It's very different and notoriously risky. He almost died in the same cave previously. His point was well taken.

It doesn't mean that being risk averse is the right way to live. It's a fair point and a good thing to consider when you are a parent. That's all.

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#286

Post by andyjohnson0 »

irrational wrote: post #244
laumars wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on the kid, their age and their relationship with their father. I don't think there is any right generalized answer. With my kids I know they would rather have me around, but they are young so I'm already "superman" to them. Who knows how our relationship will change as they grow older.

As they go through their teenage years you will get stupider and lamer in their eyes. Then sometime after they move out they will realize that you are actually quite intelligent and will, at some point, apologize for being an ass and tell you that they are proud of you. At least that was my experience with my parents and has been my experience with my kids so far.

“When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years.” - Mark Twain

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#287

Post by pavement »

j9461701 wrote: post #33

I might be speaking out of line, but taking on these kinds of risks with young children at home seems kind of selfish. The fact that he went back into the same cave that nearly killed him only a month later...almost as if to say: "I would rather my kids grow up without a Dad than live without my adrenaline fix" I am neither a father or a cave diver though, so I might be missing a piece of the puzzle. Would either gro…

I can think of a couple of angles into rationalizing this sort of thing, but then again, they say that even simply giving in to the motivation to rationalize something in any way might be a bit selfish, and (maybe) part of a personality disorder.

What does it mean to be alive at all?

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#288

Post by nonick »

aasarava wrote: post #44
j9461701 wrote: post #33

I might be speaking out of line, but taking on these kinds of risks with young children at home seems kind of selfish. The fact that he went back into the same cave that nearly killed him only a month later...almost as if to say: "I would rather my kids grow up without a Dad than live without my adrenaline fix" I am neither a father or a cave diver though, so I might be missing a piece of the puzzle. Would either gro…

Or maybe what he's saying is, "I would rather my kids learn that they should explore and enjoy the world, rather than never take any big risks." There are a lot of parents in the world. Once you start judging them (for actions other than abuse and neglect), you very quickly realize how limiting that is. Do we need to look down upon astronauts who have children? What about pilots? People who travel for work for days o…

It's kind of the same in reverse - does a parent encourage their children to embrace a risky sport/activity (karting, skiing, diving etc.) or keep them in the safety of home for fear of accident or death? We wouldn't have F1 or IndyCar drivers, ski jumpers, etc. if all parents were too protective. It's difficult to find the right balance and to give a perfect recipe and it would be impossible to eliminate all risk.

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#289

Post by idlewords »

dx034 wrote: post #248
idlewords wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can disagree, but I'm talking about an objective phenomenon. https://www.amazon.com/Killing-Zone-Second-How-Pilots/dp/007...

> when they leave their instructors behind and fly as pilot in command for the first time This is very different. If an instructor is present the danger is clearly lower. The book deals with the phase where pilots first fly alone without external help.

Read the book and you'll see that the spike comes after the first few dozen flights without an instructor present (from 100 to 350 hours of flight time). I believe you're quoting the blurb, which doesn't reflect what's actually in the book.

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#290

Post by qb45 »

freeflight wrote: post #138
dotancohen wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This has got to be the scariest video on Youtube in which no harm comes to anyone. Off topic, but here is a viable contender: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFMHjDqHL_Y There are videos of higher towers, but I believe that this video is the most thoroughly annotated one.

That's a real classic! A not as high, but way more reckless version is this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFUcxnvAeMc Guaranteed to induce acrophobia.

> A not as high, but way more reckless version

I expected to see these guys:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nY2-l3aWCTA

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