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Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

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Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#251
post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Given the choice of having a father at home or have one dead in cave but famous for exploring cool places I don't think it's hard to guess what most children would pick. In all seriousness, I do have a hard time guessing which one most children would pick. I can see reasonable arguments made on either side. Personally, I think it would be far more inspiring to have a father who died pursuing his passion, then one w…

If you just asked them, in all their ignorance, you're undoubtedly right. If you asked the children who chose the adventurous dad after he had died pursuing his passion, nearly 100% would trade the world to reverse that choice.

Your hypothetical survey method has a literal survivorship bias (and a statistical one...you're not asking the children of parents that took risks and didn't die). Looking at risk the way you're looking at it is a recipe for wasting your life. The better way to think of it is like the way that poker players look at their decision making...don't be outcome oriented. There's a logical, statistical way to do this and it's called the micromort. 1 micromort equates to a 1 in 1 million chance of death. Each activity that has been engaged in widely enough to be measured will have a micromort value and, while the math is a bit more complicated, they mostly just add up. Just because he engages in an exotic activity that carries some risk, doesn't mean he's being reckless.

Put another way, would you say a father that chooses to drive a 2 hour commute (each way) per day is being reckless? No doubt you can find countless children who lost a parent in an auto accident who would tell you they would have wanted their father to have a shorter commute and still be with them. But since driving is a familiar activity, no one questions the risk that someone is incurring with that kind of decision. And yet that 2-hours to work and 2-hours back drive is, based on the stats that I've been able to find, around 1 micromort. Over the course of a year, that adds up to around 200 micromorts, or roughly 1/5000 chance of dying. I can't find the data on cave diving, which is no doubt higher than recreational diving, but SCUBA has a value of 5 micromorts per dive, so it's roughly equivalent to driving 1250 miles on a highway. Someone doing 40 dives per year is taking on roughly the same risk as that 50,000 mi/year driver.

Humans are really bad about estimating risk. We do it by equating risk to the ease in which we can imagine something happening. It's why so many people are afraid of statistically safe activities like air travel while underestimating much more serious dangers. We need a framework, like micromorts, for thinking about risk logically to better determine what amount of risk to take on and then "spend" that risk budget in whatever way helps us get the most out of life. Parents can say, "I'd like a 90% chance of being alive when my kids turn 10, a 75% chance of being alive when they turn 18 and a 50% chance of being alive when they turn 30." Once you've decided on a risk threshold, you can work backwards to determine how many micromorts you're allowed to take on each year.

Otherwise, you're just living your life based on irrational fears.

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#252

I might be speaking out of line, but taking on these kinds of risks with young children at home seems kind of selfish. The fact that he went back into the same cave that nearly killed him only a month later...almost as if to say: "I would rather my kids grow up without a Dad than live without my adrenaline fix" I am neither a father or a cave diver though, so I might be missing a piece of the puzzle. Would either gro…

As a father I concur. I'm not a cave diver although I have ambitions of extreme mountain climbing. It would be reckless and irresponsible of me to do that until my kids are grown however.

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#253

I might be speaking out of line, but taking on these kinds of risks with young children at home seems kind of selfish. The fact that he went back into the same cave that nearly killed him only a month later...almost as if to say: "I would rather my kids grow up without a Dad than live without my adrenaline fix" I am neither a father or a cave diver though, so I might be missing a piece of the puzzle. Would either gro…

Same goes for firemen or policemen, they choose to be near / around danger.

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#254

I'd like to address the false assumption in this thread that cave diving is more dangerous than driving a car! I cave dive on a regular basis with two other guys. We've dived together as a team for nearly 10 years. I'm late 60s and single, the second guy is 50s and has a partner but no children, and the third is early 40s with a six-year-old, who he has every intention of seeing grow-up into adulthood. We often dive…

I'm a caver and I have several cave-diving friends and I think your risk assessment is off by some way.

There's maybe a couple of hundred active cave divers in the UK. I guesstimate been a cave-diving death every 5 years or so, so with a bit of guessing we could say your chance of death is 0.1% per year.

There were 1,732 road deaths in the UK in 2015 and 45.5 million licence holders. Assuming they all drove at least once, I think that's a chance of death of about 0.0038% per year.

That's based on yearly participation; if you went on a per-dive or per-drive basis you can probably separate them by at least another order of magnitude difference.

This is a bit simplistic for various reasons such as chance of a non-fatal accident when driving a car or cave diving fatalities including exploratory diving (which seems to be the case in this story) and difference in driving/diving dangerousness between UK and wherever you are but I don't think there's much doubt that cave diving is much more dangerous.

I'm not arguing you shouldn't do it but if you think cave diving is "almost certainly SIGNIFICANTLY SAFER than driving to and from the dive site", you haven't properly considered the risks.

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#255
post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's more valuably left as an exercise for the reader.

In other words, you're unwilling to back up what you say.

Yeah, because I realized it's useless. Thankfully others seem to be doing it anyway. Or perhaps I should say sadly, knowing they're just feeding a troll.

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#256
post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people just do what they need to, I'm saying this from Jeb Corlis, famous wingsuit diver, who said he just cannot avoid jumping even though it's more than risky, deadly AND that he crashed once (one of the luckiest comeback I ever got to see). His family isn't happy, but he cannot live otherwise so it's either depression or adrenaline.

and if you can't judge him for being addicted to taking risks, you can't judge people for being addicted to having feelings about it.

let's be all accepting :)

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#257
post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you just asked them, in all their ignorance, you're undoubtedly right. If you asked the children who chose the adventurous dad after he had died pursuing his passion, nearly 100% would trade the world to reverse that choice.

Your hypothetical survey method has a literal survivorship bias (and a statistical one...you're not asking the children of parents that took risks and didn't die). Looking at risk the way you're looking at it is a recipe for wasting your life. The better way to think of it is like the way that poker players look at their decision making...don't be outcome oriented. There's a logical, statistical way to do this and it…

> micromort

Today I learned this.

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#258
post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you just asked them, in all their ignorance, you're undoubtedly right. If you asked the children who chose the adventurous dad after he had died pursuing his passion, nearly 100% would trade the world to reverse that choice.

Your hypothetical survey method has a literal survivorship bias (and a statistical one...you're not asking the children of parents that took risks and didn't die). Looking at risk the way you're looking at it is a recipe for wasting your life. The better way to think of it is like the way that poker players look at their decision making...don't be outcome oriented. There's a logical, statistical way to do this and it…

I agree. In USA you are looking at 34,000 deaths a year on the roads. I'm a diver (not caves though) but my closest shaves have been while commuting! Cycling to work is probably more dangerous than cave diving.

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the complaint was that the parent had a young child, not merely a child. Without actually taking a stance on the topic, it seems quite a reasonable argument that, while you have a young child, you shouldn't actively go around risking your life -- they're your dependents, i.e. it's not just your life you're messing around with. When they stop being your dependents, do whatever you want, it's just your life now…

My brother did a fair amount of mountain climbing in his 20s, but stopped around the time he had kids. He specifically said "I don't want to go again until they're old enough to remember me." Done properly, the risks are limited, but they do exist no matter how careful you are. Now he's hit about that right time and I don't know if he even still has the desire. Age changes a lot of that. Still, it does seem like he m…

Since I had kids, I haven't gone climbing natural rock. I still go to climbing gyms (mostly to boulder these days, for unrelated reasons), but not outside.

I've discovered that I now get too fearful while climbing, too scared something bad might happen and I'd leave my children without me in the world.

It breaks my concentration, makes my actions erratic, and most crucially, makes me not enjoy it.

Who knows how I'll feel once they're older, but I suspect it won't ever change back. And that's OK.

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#260

I might be speaking out of line, but taking on these kinds of risks with young children at home seems kind of selfish. The fact that he went back into the same cave that nearly killed him only a month later...almost as if to say: "I would rather my kids grow up without a Dad than live without my adrenaline fix" I am neither a father or a cave diver though, so I might be missing a piece of the puzzle. Would either gro…

Or maybe what he's saying is, "I would rather my kids learn that they should explore and enjoy the world, rather than never take any big risks." There are a lot of parents in the world. Once you start judging them (for actions other than abuse and neglect), you very quickly realize how limiting that is. Do we need to look down upon astronauts who have children? What about pilots? People who travel for work for days o…

Yep. Good or bad, profitable life lessons or not, this is indeed the definition of selfishness.
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