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Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

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Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#51

Post by balls187 »

seanc wrote: post #35
j9461701 wrote: post #33

I might be speaking out of line, but taking on these kinds of risks with young children at home seems kind of selfish. The fact that he went back into the same cave that nearly killed him only a month later...almost as if to say: "I would rather my kids grow up without a Dad than live without my adrenaline fix" I am neither a father or a cave diver though, so I might be missing a piece of the puzzle. Would either gro…

I am a father and I agree 100% IMO maaaaybe you could be married with no kids and do this ethically. But with kids? You're rolling the dice on a very important promise. I do struggle with what that line of thinking means for soldiers though.

For a soldier, it's their duty. For the diver in the story, it was his hobby.

He'd been doing it for 24 years, so his tolerance for risk wrt cave diving is different than what you and I perceive--thus I don't blame him at all.

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#52

Post by salad77 »

manarth wrote: post #47
j9461701 wrote: post #33

I might be speaking out of line, but taking on these kinds of risks with young children at home seems kind of selfish. The fact that he went back into the same cave that nearly killed him only a month later...almost as if to say: "I would rather my kids grow up without a Dad than live without my adrenaline fix" I am neither a father or a cave diver though, so I might be missing a piece of the puzzle. Would either gro…

You leave your house, walking towards the railway station to catch a train to work. You reach a traffic-crossing near your home, and see the crossing-light flashing orange. You dash across as you're in a rush, and as you dash out, a car hits you. It wasn't entirely your fault, but you did dash out without looking, and did dash out whilst the lights were flashing orange. Do you never take that crossing (or maybe even…

When I was SCUBA training, my instructor made a point of telling everyone in the class :

"There are OLD divers and there are BOLD divers, but there are very few OLD, BOLD divers."

Every single time I had an issue under water, it was when I was trying something BOLD and it brought back the instructors words.

Martyn Farr's book [mentioned in other comments] is littered with examples of BOLD divers but when you look up to see what they're doing now, many of them are dead. Normally related to a cave incident.

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#53

Post by mhluongo »

seanc wrote: post #35
j9461701 wrote: post #33

I might be speaking out of line, but taking on these kinds of risks with young children at home seems kind of selfish. The fact that he went back into the same cave that nearly killed him only a month later...almost as if to say: "I would rather my kids grow up without a Dad than live without my adrenaline fix" I am neither a father or a cave diver though, so I might be missing a piece of the puzzle. Would either gro…

I am a father and I agree 100% IMO maaaaybe you could be married with no kids and do this ethically. But with kids? You're rolling the dice on a very important promise. I do struggle with what that line of thinking means for soldiers though.

> IMO maaaaybe you could be married with no kids and do this ethically.

I've never heard any vows include anything about cave diving.

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#54

Post by Chris2048 »

aasarava wrote: post #44
j9461701 wrote: post #33

I might be speaking out of line, but taking on these kinds of risks with young children at home seems kind of selfish. The fact that he went back into the same cave that nearly killed him only a month later...almost as if to say: "I would rather my kids grow up without a Dad than live without my adrenaline fix" I am neither a father or a cave diver though, so I might be missing a piece of the puzzle. Would either gro…

Or maybe what he's saying is, "I would rather my kids learn that they should explore and enjoy the world, rather than never take any big risks." There are a lot of parents in the world. Once you start judging them (for actions other than abuse and neglect), you very quickly realize how limiting that is. Do we need to look down upon astronauts who have children? What about pilots? People who travel for work for days o…

> rather than never take any big risks

With kids at home? specifically?!

There are ways to enjoy life, or take "risks", that do not involve mortal danger.

> Do we need to look down upon astronauts who have children? What about pilots? .. Someone who commutes .. in a car that has a poor safety rating?

Are those as dangerous? If so, then yes, I think so.

> People who travel for work for days or weeks at a time?

People agonise about this all the time. But seeing the kids not very often is very different from dying and never seeing them again.

> The good news is that once you become a father, you'll get to decide (possibly with a partner) what the acceptable level of risk is for you and your family.

Oh, great. Does that mean we should also stop judging people about abuse and neglect too? I mean, fuck other peoples kids, right?

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#55

Post by Chris2048 »

seanc wrote: post #35
j9461701 wrote: post #33

I might be speaking out of line, but taking on these kinds of risks with young children at home seems kind of selfish. The fact that he went back into the same cave that nearly killed him only a month later...almost as if to say: "I would rather my kids grow up without a Dad than live without my adrenaline fix" I am neither a father or a cave diver though, so I might be missing a piece of the puzzle. Would either gro…

I am a father and I agree 100% IMO maaaaybe you could be married with no kids and do this ethically. But with kids? You're rolling the dice on a very important promise. I do struggle with what that line of thinking means for soldiers though.

> I do struggle with what that line of thinking means for soldiers though.

It means exactly the same, but with millennia of cultural resistance to overcome before you can accept it.

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#56

Post by Chris2048 »

balls187 wrote: post #51
seanc wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a father and I agree 100% IMO maaaaybe you could be married with no kids and do this ethically. But with kids? You're rolling the dice on a very important promise. I do struggle with what that line of thinking means for soldiers though.

For a soldier, it's their duty. For the diver in the story, it was his hobby. He'd been doing it for 24 years, so his tolerance for risk wrt cave diving is different than what you and I perceive--thus I don't blame him at all.

> For a soldier, it's their duty

They accept that duty though, so it's the same thing - instead of "is it ok for a soldier to go to war" it's "is it ok to become a soldier".

> his tolerance for risk wrt cave diving is different than what you and I perceive

What does this mean?

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#57

Post by nvahalik »

Chris2048 wrote: post #54
aasarava wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or maybe what he's saying is, "I would rather my kids learn that they should explore and enjoy the world, rather than never take any big risks." There are a lot of parents in the world. Once you start judging them (for actions other than abuse and neglect), you very quickly realize how limiting that is. Do we need to look down upon astronauts who have children? What about pilots? People who travel for work for days o…

> rather than never take any big risks With kids at home? specifically ?! There are ways to enjoy life, or take "risks", that do not involve mortal danger. > Do we need to look down upon astronauts who have children? What about pilots? .. Someone who commutes .. in a car that has a poor safety rating? Are those as dangerous? If so, then yes, I think so. > People who travel for work for days or weeks at a time? People…

> There are ways to enjoy life, or take "risks", that do not involve mortal danger.

Depends on how you look at it.

We are fragile creatures and the world is a fairly dangerous place. People die every day driving cars, riding bikes, going for walks—doing things far more mundane than cave-diving.

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#58

Post by brianwawok »

j9461701 wrote: post #33

I might be speaking out of line, but taking on these kinds of risks with young children at home seems kind of selfish. The fact that he went back into the same cave that nearly killed him only a month later...almost as if to say: "I would rather my kids grow up without a Dad than live without my adrenaline fix" I am neither a father or a cave diver though, so I might be missing a piece of the puzzle. Would either gro…

Well, where do you draw the line? It is safer to stay inside than outside. A padded room is safer than a normal roof.

Should all parents stay in a padded room?

I think everyone has a different place for the line.

Re: Two days in an underwater cave running out of oxygen

#59

Post by balls187 »

Chris2048 wrote: post #56
balls187 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a soldier, it's their duty. For the diver in the story, it was his hobby. He'd been doing it for 24 years, so his tolerance for risk wrt cave diving is different than what you and I perceive--thus I don't blame him at all.

> For a soldier, it's their duty They accept that duty though, so it's the same thing - instead of "is it ok for a soldier to go to war" it's "is it ok to become a soldier". > his tolerance for risk wrt cave diving is different than what you and I perceive What does this mean?

> What does this mean?

As someone who's never done cave diving, the perception of risk is going to be higher than the actual risk. 1 time in 24 years is pretty low.

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