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Stop complaining and pay programmers more

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241–250 of 290 posts

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#241
post #171

I feel that good/great programmers ask too little. Because there's order of magnitude of variance in skill sets and productivity, there should be much more variance in salaries. In Finland, if you leave out top 0.5%, the variance is between 2000€-5000€. And most of it settles around 3000-4000€. Finland is very eqalitarian society when it comes to salaries and thus that has to be taken into account. But still. 2.5 is…

Different parts of the US have such large variances in the cost of living that it's hard to give a meaningful answer (i.e. non-skilled labor here has greater variance than that).

How about e.g. in Bay Area? What's a typical range for skilled programmer and what a horrible coder can earn while hiding inside some clueless big co?

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#243
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment peaked my interest to read the HBR article you mentioned. Thanks. http://hbr.org/2010/07/the-big-idea-no-management-is-not-a-p...

No, it piqued your interest.

Thanks for core wrecking my miss take :p

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#244
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and I don't think everything a doctor or lawyer does is then thoroughly tested. And if you fail to meet the high barriers to entry for doctors and lawyers, the likelihood that you'll make disastrous errors is pretty high.

Is it? Or is it something we just believe? Doctors used to think that having paramedics would result in disaster. I think the vast majority of times one needs to use the services of a doctor could be handled by someone with far less training and certification.

Also non-doctors have a much higher usage rate for expert systems and data entry systems. and their work patterns are usually highly formalized and verified by expert docs.

So in practice , non-doctors might be able to offer better medical treatment , than you average doc.

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#245

The same thing is (and has been) happening with nursing. They complain endlessly about the "nursing shortage" unable to figure out why people might be unwilling to do a hard job for long hours requiring extra education and incurring outsized liabilities for extremely low pay. The really bad news is its starting to catch up with many doctors as well.

> for extremely low pay Not sure where you are from, but here in Canada nurses lead very cushy lives. Salaries of 80 to 120K are not uncommon, and that's with 4 weeks of vacation, 1 day in / 3 days out schedule, etc.

Do you actually know any nurses, because I doubt it from your description.

My gf is an EMT, and two of my sisters are nurses. Here's the actuality:

Nurses are paid OK. They work long stressful jobs with severe penalties, both moral and civil, for screwing anything up. There is a high chance of serious injury, particularly while trying to move or assist fat or obese patients, of which there are more and more due to the obesity epidemic and diabetes. Working as a nurse or EMT means physical labor involving long periods of standing on your feet; little control over when your shift ends, no matter what the schedule says; having to work very early morning or very late evening shifts to get 100% coverage; and very little flexibility during the day. You know how you can run small errands and do little errands with your computer? They, for the most part, can't.

They also have ongoing education and certification requirements that they most often pay for out of pocket.

Finally, being an EMT, paramedic, or nurse means not only developing an intimate relationship with bodily fluids of all sorts but seeing on a daily basis the worst things that can happen to a human being. From mangled bodies from car accidents to cancer, to diseases (including those that require hazmat suits and offer severe risks if anything goes wrong), to infected wounds, to septic shock or heart failure or stroke, they see all the things that can go wrong with a human.

So yes, they're fairly well paid, but I wouldn't describe their actual jobs as anything like "cushy".

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#246
post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> for extremely low pay Not sure where you are from, but here in Canada nurses lead very cushy lives. Salaries of 80 to 120K are not uncommon, and that's with 4 weeks of vacation, 1 day in / 3 days out schedule, etc.

Here's a link to information about base pay for nurses in the US (2006). It actually mentions the nursing "shortage" at the top: http://www.allied-physicians.com/salary-surveys/nursing/

2006 and 2010 are a world apart economically

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#247

I feel that good/great programmers ask too little. Because there's order of magnitude of variance in skill sets and productivity, there should be much more variance in salaries. In Finland, if you leave out top 0.5%, the variance is between 2000€-5000€. And most of it settles around 3000-4000€. Finland is very eqalitarian society when it comes to salaries and thus that has to be taken into account. But still. 2.5 is…

The knowledge that there is huge variance in productivity level of programmers is kind of useless, because we mostly lack the ability to reliably measure true productivity. Similar to advertising: "I know I waste half of my advertising dollars...I just wish I knew which half." You can really only pay amazing devs more if you can figure out which devs are the amazing ones.

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#248
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's silly, physicians, mechanics, lawyers, and many other skilled tradesmen are just like programmers. The problem is that many folks see programmers as somehow different than these folks.

I read a great article in the Harvard Business Review about what defines a profession. Their question: are managers a profession akin to Doctors and Lawyers? The author defined a professional as someone whose work you have to take on faith. Not being doctors or lawyers ourselves, we're usually unable to evaluate the quality of legal advice or medical care we're receiving. The best we can do is seek another opinion. T…

Using the internet it's possible to verify a doctor's job(assuming access to medical charts and lab results).

I think the thing that separates licensed professions from unlicensed ones , is usually issues of safety,i.e. when the price of an error is just too expensive.

So truck drivers(which is a pretty easy to verify job - are goods delivered ? ) are licensed, and have a conduct code("sleep every X hours" , speed limits ) , and computer maintenance technicians aren't, even thought it's more complex to verify their job(are updates installed ? is the computer secure ? ).

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#249
post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't it even worse? None of those professions have access to copy and paste! We all know programmers who would be sunk without it.

Good lawyers use copy and paste all the time. ;-)

Bad ones too, that's how the first draft of our employment contract had a non-compete clause prohibiting staff from working in the child-care industry.

(We do hardware/embedded software)

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am incredibly happy that this will never happen in software development. Oh I don't know, the idea of programmers being better paid has a certain attraction to me :-) On a more serious note, the way that lawyers and doctors (and some other tradesmen in some jurisdictions) have managed to illegalise competition is wrong and needs to be stopped. Vets can perform operations for a tenth the cost doctors can -- is thi…

I don't think that the competition is illegal. I thought that if you are a private practitioner of either you could just set your prices lower. The fact no-one does maybe implies that either there is a shortage of these people or that they really just do it for the money neither of which are true. I'm pretty sure the entrance criteria do not also include "you must charge X for this service". But I think we see simila…

You just described 2 of the ways that the competition is being limited by law and politics: 1. Controlling the number of doctors graduating per year. 2. Making medical training very long and expensive(even when it's not needed - for example when nurses can replace doctors) so that doctors would inevitably charge higher rates in the future.

Since medicine historically was distributed and built by community doctors , the classic competition limiting strategy of using big monopolies didn't fit here.

So the medical profession uses many different strategies for limiting "distributed" competition.

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