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Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

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Re: Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

#411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He is just saying ask for a raise before you go solicit offers from other companies.

Fine but then how to you back up your claims that you actually are worth a higher salary?

I suppose it primes the discussion with "does my employer even see me as valuable? Perhaps more valuable than I am being paid for?"

If the answer to that is no, no amount of backup will convince them otherwise. Then you get into the question of "why am I working here" and it forces you to leave anyway.

Somehow, all paths lead to leaving. And I think this is what the original article is getting at - if you want more money, your best bet is to leave.

Re: Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

#412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Might work somewhere else. I always felt blackmailed in a situation like this and wished the employee all the best with his new job. [Edit] To clarify the blackmail note: It's better to talk in the weekly 1:1 about salary expectations, changing markets or during people development focus, than to pull up a competing offer out of your hat while not talking about your dissatisfaction with pay during weekly 1:1s. 1. If t…

"Might work somewhere else. I always felt blackmailed in a situation like this" Are you fucking stupid? Your employee is giving you a chance to retain them. They want to work for you, but can't make it work financially, and you're turning your nose up at them? For what reason? It's probably going to cost you the money to hire someone new that it would've taken you to retain them! I will never understand this line of…

Come on...

""" Be civil. Don't say things you wouldn't say in a face-to-face conversation. Avoid gratuitous negativity.

When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. E.g. "That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3." """

Re: Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

#413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Anything longer, especially if there is a lot of long-term stasis on a resume (e.g. "tech lead on product X" for more than a year or two), is an indication to me of someone who either isn't capable of stretching himself or doesn't want to. That's insane. Someone who is the technical leader of a project for more than two years doesn't "stretch himself"? I see no reason to believe that's true. If anything, it takes y…

Great point. I actually don't think the one has valuable experience until one spent 2+ years on the same project. All bigger projects get more chaotic and complicated over time and that needs specific set of skills to get managed in all directions. Until you experienced it first hand, you are really just a hello-world-on-steroids.

But once somebody has done that once, it's unlikely that additional years will contribute to experience: there's a steep drop off in the marginal experience gained for additional time spent.

That's why I wrote what I did: longer than a year or two on the same project in the same capacity is a negative indicator. It's not a deal-breaker, especially if it's just a small fraction of the employment history. If it represents the majority of the developer's history, then I expect to see significant expansion of his role as time progresses. Otherwise he's just doing the "same experience, N years over" trick, just on the other extreme end from the guy who never lasts longer than a year or so to see a project from initial development through maturity and maintenance.

Re: Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

#414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Individual companies having a gender pay gap doesn't mean the market has a gender pay gap. And if you work at one of those companies and are told that you can't be given a raise because of the internal, secret gender pay gap, you should quit that company and find a new job. I mean, even if it's true that particular company is paying its women worse than its men, and even if legislation means they can't quickly fix it…

Even when this company has > 100,000 emploees and has individual divisions with more engineers than Google

What does the company's size have to do with whether or not you are being paid the amount of money you want?

Re: Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

#415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1. If the employee is only motivated by money, he will be gone rather sooner than later as there is always a higher offer around. What else would they be motivated by? It's not their hobby. This doesn't mean they are also not into programming and coding challenges -- but those are constants that they can find in another employer too. if they like the programming, it's not that they can't find a programming job else…

> What else would they be motivated by? The actual work (what is being done), the mission of the company (are you helping kids send pictures that disappear after 10 seconds or are you working on finding a cure to hearing loss?), the team, the location (do I have to spend 2h commuting?), the opportunities to learn, the opportunities to grow, etc. We each value different things, but if money is your only consideration,…

I am not a disposable mercenary because I want to be. I am that because years of "at will" employment and layoffs made me into that. Loyalty is a two-way street, and employers have torn up their end of it with bulldozers.

Money must be my only consideration, because that is usually the only thing of value that I get out of the employer-employee relationship.

All those work-related properties reduce to money and time. A shorter commute means less time spent in traffic and less money spent on fuel and maintenance, but often also means more money spent on housing. If my company wrote software for managing cancer trials instead of flight mission planning for military aviation, I might give them a break of 2-3% on my salary expectations. But if they offer $20000/year less than I currently earn (anecdotally, this has happened to me), well, sorry doe-eyed leukemia kids, but I have to make rent.

As for the team... Well, do you pay them enough to stay? People who entice others to join because they foster a great team environment should be paid more, not less, and your suggestion implies the opposite--that people who work on a good team should be willing to accept lower salaries.

If you have employees coming to you with competing offers every six months, that means one thing: your raises are not competitive with the market. We all know that job hunting is a stressful, unpleasant ordeal, and that is a cost that satisfied employees won't be willing to pay. If you see competitive offers from your employees, not only do you pay too little, but you pay so little that someone was willing to do the job-hunting dance in order to find better pay.

Anecdotally (n~=9) I have found your final statement to be inaccurate. Companies are interested purely in how much money they can make from your work. Your individual manager at a company may value more things, but those things might not translate to another manager, or might not help you if the money is ever a problem. For instance, you might get a $500 discretionary bonus for exemplary work one month, and be laid off with 3 days notice and no severance the next (this actually happened to me).

Companies value money. I value money. As long as we are both honest about this, it tends to work out. It doesn't get rough; it's just business as usual. It is only when people start lying about how their companies value things that problems occur. Based on the statistics, companies generally value loyalty at -3% of current salary per year, or worse. The article implies -7%, I think; the math wasn't entirely clear, and heavily assumptions-based.

Re: Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

#416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Might work somewhere else. I always felt blackmailed in a situation like this" Are you fucking stupid? Your employee is giving you a chance to retain them. They want to work for you, but can't make it work financially, and you're turning your nose up at them? For what reason? It's probably going to cost you the money to hire someone new that it would've taken you to retain them! I will never understand this line of…

Come on... """ Be civil. Don't say things you wouldn't say in a face-to-face conversation. Avoid gratuitous negativity. When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. E.g. "That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3." """

Completely honest: I would say every word of this to someone who took this approach to hiring. It is absolutely baffling to me that managers use this tact. Their reasoning is flawed and shortsighted, but has the benefit of keeping wages artificially low, so it also has the happy side effect of being very destructive.

Is it civil? No, but neither is cutting the legs out of a generation of employees because you're too dimwitted -- or worse: greedy -- to not pick up that dollar next to the dime.

Re: Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

#417
post #80

I think it's important to understand that there's a significant amount of selection bias possible here. In general, folks who switch jobs every two years are the folks who are not getting offered big raises by their current companies. The ones who are getting offered big raises may still choose to leave due to other reasons, but they often will choose to stay instead. And they won't be making a big fuss about it onli…

> significant amount of selection bias possible here

There's another one: I once heard the phenomenon described as "the difference between having ten years of experience versus having one year of experience ten times". The kind of people who end up having ten years of experience will typically be the kind of people who will want to move on and do something new/more after having mastered a given set of tasks. Sometimes they can do this inside the same company, but oftentimes they will need to look outside and switch jobs for the challenges they're after.

The other kind will typically value stability and comfort over money (and let's not underestimate the stress of applying, interviewing and switching jobs). Sometimes they will have "fallen" more or less accidentally into this mode, but I've met more than a few good people who actively choses this, and explicitly acknowledges that it's not exactly a money-play.

When the former kind makes more money, it's not because they switch jobs often, that's just a symptom. People in investment banking or management consulting with clearly defined up-or-out career paths are subjected to the same dynamic, and also make a lot of money.

Re: Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

#418

Best way to increase salary at current workplace? Get offers from other companies & ask for a meeting with your boss (or whoever decides your pay, so HR etc.). Bring up the offers, discuss what you'd get from there and also go through the potential career you could build at those companies. For example: Consultancy X would pay me $k/mo and every 6months it will go up the ladder if I perform well. With this kind of di…

[deleted]

Re: Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

#419
post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Corporations are rational. They care about one thing, dollars. If you are making them money, they will keep you no matter what. If you are not making them money, they will get rid of you. Pretty rational I think.

That's just ludicrous. Corporations routinely do astoundingly stupid, financially damaging things for all sorts of reasons.

Seconded I have seen many occasions of outstandingly dumb decisions

Re: Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

#420
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why the hostility? Are people not allowed to talk about events happening now? I mean, do you make a similar comment on all the articles you read? "Oh thanks a lot ENCODE for telling us that 80 percent of the genome had a biochemical function. I didn't know we were going to repeat stuff that everybody new in 2012."??

The hostility is because it's ridiculously obvious that moving from a minimum-wage job to a run-of-the-mill professional job is going to net you an incredible percentage increase in salary, especially in the US where the minimum wage is a joke. And where is the 'events happening now' in what I said? Job-hopping? Not exactly a new thing. > I mean, do you make a similar comment on all the articles you read? So... I can…

It was a dumb example, that's all. In 2005, I went from being a state employee to a contractor and doubled my pay that year. Is that relevant, though?
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