Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less • Hacker News Board

Re: Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

#391

Post by arwhatever » Mon, Jul 17, 2017, 3:40 PM UTC

mikekchar wrote: post #55

needlessly wrote: post #21

I don't get people who say, "Well I would never hire someone who has never worked more than 5 years at a single place!!!" I would never have increased my from $68k to $115k in 5 years.I probably would've been somewhere at like $80k right now at best if I was didn't switch jobs twice. If it means some hiring manager is going say some snarky opinion, then yes I'll take my extra money.

On the other hand, look at it from a hiring manager's perspective: people who have stayed in a job long enough to see how things go wrong are also less expensive. I'll be honest, if I'm looking at a CV for someone with 10 years of experience and they have changed jobs every year or two, I will suspect that they are missing some pretty important experience as a senior developer. Everybody makes serious mistakes that d…

Interesting counter-example: I learned these lessons in long-term ownership at my first programming job, which I stayed at for 5 years, at a company in the Midwest which most people don't seem to ever leave.

Then I moved to a much larger software market, and I have been job hoping more than once once a year, but because the teams and companies themselves have no notion of long term ownership, preferring instead to cut whatever corners to get the thing right now done most quickly, without regard for the future.

Re: Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

#392

Post by varelse » Mon, Jul 17, 2017, 3:43 PM UTC

jotjotzzz wrote: post #390

elnygren wrote: post #107

Best way to increase salary at current workplace? Get offers from other companies & ask for a meeting with your boss (or whoever decides your pay, so HR etc.). Bring up the offers, discuss what you'd get from there and also go through the potential career you could build at those companies. For example: Consultancy X would pay me $k/mo and every 6months it will go up the ladder if I perform well. With this kind of di…

"Get offers from other companies" mean you are doing a job search and interviewing to get a job in that company. Once they offer you a job, you get that offer letter. Most people do this when they are already fed up with their current employer and are ready to move on. So this advice means -- actively search (best time to get a job is when you have a job). Pitfalls with this advice: your current employer is not dubio…

You should interview defensively at least a couple times a year IMO. It is good to know your market value. HR knows your market value. When your pay and your market value go wildly out of line, it's time to step up. This happens disturbingly often with long-term risk-averse employees.

That said, if you can't stomach risk, then don't do this. But try to understand that by not taking risks now, you're taking a huge long-term risk on your financial future.

Re: Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

#393

Post by jcadam » Mon, Jul 17, 2017, 3:43 PM UTC

scaryclam wrote: post #112

elnygren wrote: post #107

Best way to increase salary at current workplace? Get offers from other companies & ask for a meeting with your boss (or whoever decides your pay, so HR etc.). Bring up the offers, discuss what you'd get from there and also go through the potential career you could build at those companies. For example: Consultancy X would pay me $k/mo and every 6months it will go up the ladder if I perform well. With this kind of di…

I imagine this is good advice in some places, but as a line manager, if you pull this on me I'm more than likely to shake your hand and wish you luck in your new job. In a lot of places, having a talk with your manager about your salary before going off and actively looking for other offers is going to go down a lot better. Most line managers worth working for, value their teams and will fight for them if they are un…

> In a lot of places, having a talk with your manager about your salary before going off and actively looking for other offers is going to go down a lot better.

This has got to be some of the worst career advice I've ever heard. I made this mistake once, at my first software job. My employer's response was to say "NO" and then proceed to make my life hell in an attempt to make me quit. With a wife, kids, and a mortgage, that wasn't an option for me. I was eventually fired (for poor performance, a mere 2 months after receiving an 'outstanding' yearly appraisal) and spent 2 months unemployed before landing my next job. On the plus side, the offer I received was higher than the raise I had requested from my former employer.

So, my advice: Trusting your manager to be a reasonable human being is not worth the risk. You are absolutely satisfied with all aspects of your job, including your salary... right up until the moment you hand your boss a letter of resignation.

Now if you have a large amount of savings (say 6 months - 1 year of living expenses), feel free to take stupid risks. Otherwise, have another job lined up when you ask for a raise... you don't have to actually tell your boss about it, after all.

Re: Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

#394

Post by johnward » Mon, Jul 17, 2017, 3:44 PM UTC

jotjotzzz wrote: post #390

elnygren wrote: post #107

Best way to increase salary at current workplace? Get offers from other companies & ask for a meeting with your boss (or whoever decides your pay, so HR etc.). Bring up the offers, discuss what you'd get from there and also go through the potential career you could build at those companies. For example: Consultancy X would pay me $k/mo and every 6months it will go up the ladder if I perform well. With this kind of di…

"Get offers from other companies" mean you are doing a job search and interviewing to get a job in that company. Once they offer you a job, you get that offer letter. Most people do this when they are already fed up with their current employer and are ready to move on. So this advice means -- actively search (best time to get a job is when you have a job). Pitfalls with this advice: your current employer is not dubio…

"Once you have said "you have an offer" it acts as a flag that at you." I've found this line of thinking to be false but so many employees are afraid of this. If it does happen you just leave again, big deal.

Re: Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

#395

Post by ocdtrekkie » Mon, Jul 17, 2017, 3:44 PM UTC

malka wrote: post #385

magnetic wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What else would they be motivated by? The actual work (what is being done), the mission of the company (are you helping kids send pictures that disappear after 10 seconds or are you working on finding a cure to hearing loss?), the team, the location (do I have to spend 2h commuting?), the opportunities to learn, the opportunities to grow, etc. We each value different things, but if money is your only consideration,…

As soon as companies are loyal to their employee, I will be loyal to them. Work is a simple contract. I give time. I get money. Period. The company will not hesitate to throw me under the bus if it can bring more money, and I do not see why I should be more considerate toward them ?

Perhaps then, you should consider looking to work for a company that will be loyal to you. :)

Re: Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

#396

Post by 33W » Mon, Jul 17, 2017, 3:45 PM UTC

bitexploder wrote: post #192

boomboomsubban wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In a lot of places, having a talk with your manager about your salary before going off and actively looking for other offers is going to go down a lot better. Most line managers worth working for, value their teams and will fight for them if they are unhappy, without the threats. This doesn't agree with the research here, and your first statement doesn't agree with your second. If you value your team, they shouldn't…

The research I am aware of says if someone comes into your office with a competing offer they are likely to be gone in 6 months. https://hbr.org/2016/07/setting-the-record-straight-using-an... Outside offers to get a raise are a risky business at best. If someone is unhappy enough to do this it isn't just compensation most of the time.

This is an interesting problem. Let's say I think I'm underpaid and speak with my manager about it.

If I go in with broad market data, the argument could be made that my specific circumstances make the general market data invalid.

If I go in with specific job offers, then I present myself as a risk to leaving, and the conversation may be more adversarial than I intend.

So could there be a service that sits in between? my-market-rate.example.com. Employees submit resumes, and we abstract the companies, roles, etc. Submit those resumes to companies to get an expected salary for that position and indicate interest to hire.

Re: Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

#397

Post by mseebach » Mon, Jul 17, 2017, 3:45 PM UTC

joshklein wrote: post #338

_Codemonkeyism wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Might work somewhere else. I always felt blackmailed in a situation like this and wished the employee all the best with his new job. [Edit] To clarify the blackmail note: It's better to talk in the weekly 1:1 about salary expectations, changing markets or during people development focus, than to pull up a competing offer out of your hat while not talking about your dissatisfaction with pay during weekly 1:1s. 1. If t…

I think it's important to take both of the posts above this one seriously and not dismiss them as "not in my experience." If you want leverage in any negotiating situation, you need to be able to walk away from the negotiation if the final terms are undesirable. The party with the best "next-best option" is usually the one most willing to stand their ground on terms, or walk. That means you need to be prepared to los…

There's something to be said for communication style. You can do essentially what top-GP suggests, but without the high-conflict ultimatum -- basically, communicate your worry about your salary in a series of low-drama conversations, in which you can calmly suggest that your research implies that you'd be able to make $X in a similar job elsewhere, but really enjoy your current job, etc.

The key, of course, is always to understand your BATNA: Are you actually willing to leave? You can play a significantly more daring game if you're prepared to lose, rather than accept status quo or a modest improvement.

Re: Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

#398

Post by slantyyz » Mon, Jul 17, 2017, 3:46 PM UTC

lordCarbonFiber wrote: post #336

_Codemonkeyism wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Might work somewhere else. I always felt blackmailed in a situation like this and wished the employee all the best with his new job. [Edit] To clarify the blackmail note: It's better to talk in the weekly 1:1 about salary expectations, changing markets or during people development focus, than to pull up a competing offer out of your hat while not talking about your dissatisfaction with pay during weekly 1:1s. 1. If t…

To me if I can get a better offer (ie over 10% salary increase) that's just a signal that the current employer is trying to take advantage of me. I'm with you in that I'd never go back and negotiate, I'd just leave. Especially early in your career, there is 0 reason to stick around with someone that won't pay you what you're worth. Underpaying is going to directly correlate with retention problems, and limited career…

>> To me if I can get a better offer (ie over 10% salary increase) that's just a signal that the current employer is trying to take advantage of me.

It's more likely ignorance of your specific market price than malice.

First, the employer isn't even going to know your outside market price if you don't get an offer in the first place. For you to prove that you're worth the 10% salary increase, you would have to be vetted by a prospective employer as having met their requirements to be hired at some price.

Secondly, your current employer needs to agree that you're worth that 10% salary increase. Their perception of your value may simply not match your own perception of your value.

Re: Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

#399

Post by nfriedly » Mon, Jul 17, 2017, 3:46 PM UTC

theandrewbailey wrote: post #359

nfriedly wrote: post #305

I wonder how strongly this holds after you're into the higher end of the salary range? My best increase ever was going from my highschool/college web dev job to freelance, where I more than tripped my hourly rate from $12.50/hr to $45/hr. (It probably wasn't quite 3x after accounting for taxes and healthcare and such, but it was still a good jump, and brought more flexible hours too.) Since then, I've gotten 20-25% i…

> I also live in Ohio, with the exception of one year I spent in SF. I imagine I could double my current salary moving back to SF or over to NYC, but I'm happier here. I once joked to a recruiter in SF that California dollars aren't worth much. He understood. Have you tried/considered charging SF/NYC rates to companies that are based there?

> Have you tried/considered charging SF/NYC rates to companies that are based there?

Yep, that's basically what I do :D

Moving to SF and then moving back was one of the biggest boosts - both in the immediate pay raise, and in giving me the sense of self-worth to ask for more in future roles.

I'm now at $126k base + bonuses and retirement and such. I know that's on the low end for SF/NYC, but I've definitely seen jobs there offer less. I lease a small office that's a 6-min bike ride from home for $250/month and work from there most days. All told, I'm pretty happy.

($60-80k is upper end around here. Elsevier once offered me $100k to work on site in Dayton - apparently they have trouble finding smart people who don't hate them - but I was already up to $120k and working from home at the time.)

My rate when I quit freelancing full-time was $125/hr, mostly working for companies in bigger cities. I'd charge more than that today, and probably switch to a daily or weekly rate.

Re: Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

#400

Post by johnward » Mon, Jul 17, 2017, 3:47 PM UTC

scaryclam wrote: post #112

elnygren wrote: post #107

Best way to increase salary at current workplace? Get offers from other companies & ask for a meeting with your boss (or whoever decides your pay, so HR etc.). Bring up the offers, discuss what you'd get from there and also go through the potential career you could build at those companies. For example: Consultancy X would pay me $k/mo and every 6months it will go up the ladder if I perform well. With this kind of di…

I imagine this is good advice in some places, but as a line manager, if you pull this on me I'm more than likely to shake your hand and wish you luck in your new job. In a lot of places, having a talk with your manager about your salary before going off and actively looking for other offers is going to go down a lot better. Most line managers worth working for, value their teams and will fight for them if they are un…

In my experience managers tend to have their hands tied as to what they can offer. You may get 3% if you ask for a raise. Companies tend to give managers more options when they are trying to keep an employee from jumping ship. This is all from my time with megacorps though.