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Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

forbes.com

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Re: Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

#341

Post by crusso »

corobo wrote: post #285
JCharante wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know it doesn't add anything of value to the thread, but that's a really good analogy.

Not really. Business is business and personal is personal. If you look at them both the same you'll end up stuck in a job you hate for 8 years thinking you're being super loyal and that raise is just around the corner. Spouses are loyal back, businesses are not.

That's not true at all in my experience. Both as a manager to others, I've always tried to be loyal to employees who invested in the employer/employee relationship - and as an employee who benefitted from having an employer/managers look out for me when inevitable bumps in the road occurred in my personal life.

Outside of my own direct experience, I can also recall many other co-workers' experiences where the companies I've worked for went above and beyond in their commitment to their employees. One time that meant making many extraordinary allowances for an employee suffering from a mental breakdown. At times it has meant extending the employment of someone who was looking for a life/career change, but the company kept on paying a salary until the employee found somewhere new to land - way beyond where the employment had any real benefit to the company. There are many others.

By all means, takes some precautions. By all means, stand up for yourself. By all means, make sure that you're being fairly compensated... but if you go into every relationship, personal or business, with your shields raised and phasers set to kill - you will reap what you sow.

Re: Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

#342

Post by lordCarbonFiber »

_wwz4 wrote: post #277
djslakor wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but as a line manager, if you pull this on me I'm more than likely to shake your hand and wish you luck in your new job. "Pull this on you"? You sound like a real joy to work for. This is expressly why I choose gigs where I'm working directly for an owner if at all possible. If you've created value, owners know how important you are and will take your request seriously as long as it's reasonable. In my career, I ha…

Letting everyone know they'll immediately be shown the door if they dare request an increase would create a terrible culture The person to whom you're responding explicitly drew a distinction between discussing a raise with your boss vs going to your boss with another offer that you have secured. I can see the importance of that distinction. To put the relationship in a different context: Imagine the difference betwe…

The issue with your example is the matter of context. A relationship, in the normal case, isn't a business arrangement. In the 21st century companies (and that's all companies small start up to large mega corp) have no loyalty to you as an employee and you sure as hell shouldn't have any loyalty to them.

Re: Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

#343

Post by scaryclam »

gaius wrote: post #225
scaryclam wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I imagine this is good advice in some places, but as a line manager, if you pull this on me I'm more than likely to shake your hand and wish you luck in your new job. In a lot of places, having a talk with your manager about your salary before going off and actively looking for other offers is going to go down a lot better. Most line managers worth working for, value their teams and will fight for them if they are un…

you're name's likely to get further up the redundancy list than you'd probably like. But you don't make PEOPLE redundant, only POSITIONS. If you are using redundancies as cover to target individuals that have annoyed you, then you will be shortly staring at the business end of a tribunal.

Sorry, I think you may have misunderstood me.

If a company has 10 developers and needs to cut down to 7, then the folks who have actively been interviewing in the near past are going to be considered more of a risk, especially by HR, who are likely to be making the list.

Hiring is an expensive endeavor, so if HR sees someone as a risk and they need to cut positions, you can bet that they're going to see it as a better thing to let employees who have a risk factor to them go than others who don't (on paper that is, no-one can know what's going to happen tomorrow).

They definitely don't want to cut the staff down and then have to go into a hiring stage soon after, because someone who was getting itchy feet decided to walk with another offer anyway.

This isn't about targeting people just because they want more money/fairer pay/more holiday/bonuses. It's just about how companies behave.

Re: Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

#344

Post by rhodysurf »

softawre wrote: post #313
djslakor wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but as a line manager, if you pull this on me I'm more than likely to shake your hand and wish you luck in your new job. "Pull this on you"? You sound like a real joy to work for. This is expressly why I choose gigs where I'm working directly for an owner if at all possible. If you've created value, owners know how important you are and will take your request seriously as long as it's reasonable. In my career, I ha…

He is just saying ask for a raise before you go solicit offers from other companies.

Fine but then how to you back up your claims that you actually are worth a higher salary?

Re: Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

#345

Post by losteverything »

dsmithatx wrote: post #255

I keep seeing articles like this that fail to point out an important fact. The economy has been strong for a long time and it is a workers market. Once there is another downturn it will be an employers market. Job hoppers will be lucky to land interviews, much less command high salaries. That is unless you are in the top % of your skill level or have some skill like Oracle DBA that is highly sought after. I worry abo…

And.. I doubt anyone today believes their skill set will be in demand 20 years from now.

Get as much as you can right now... Cause there is no guarantee of a future

Re: Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

#346

Post by LostCharacter »

_Codemonkeyism wrote: post #322
elnygren wrote: post #107

Best way to increase salary at current workplace? Get offers from other companies & ask for a meeting with your boss (or whoever decides your pay, so HR etc.). Bring up the offers, discuss what you'd get from there and also go through the potential career you could build at those companies. For example: Consultancy X would pay me $k/mo and every 6months it will go up the ladder if I perform well. With this kind of di…

Might work somewhere else. I always felt blackmailed in a situation like this and wished the employee all the best with his new job. [Edit] To clarify the blackmail note: It's better to talk in the weekly 1:1 about salary expectations, changing markets or during people development focus, than to pull up a competing offer out of your hat while not talking about your dissatisfaction with pay during weekly 1:1s. 1. If t…

If an employee is coming to you with those offers instead of just leaving for the other job, shouldn't that indicate to you that they WANT to stay, but they also want to keep their career moving forward and earn more money? Why is that unreasonable? You're sending people out the door that want to continue working for your company just because they're telling you they have better opportunities and giving you a chance to give them one, too.

Re: Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

#347

Post by crusso »

coldtea wrote: post #335
_wwz4 wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Letting everyone know they'll immediately be shown the door if they dare request an increase would create a terrible culture The person to whom you're responding explicitly drew a distinction between discussing a raise with your boss vs going to your boss with another offer that you have secured. I can see the importance of that distinction. To put the relationship in a different context: Imagine the difference betwe…

> The person to whom you're responding explicitly drew a distinction between discussing a raise with your boss vs going to your boss with another offer that you have secured. Because it's only OK to ask for a raise when the boss has the upper hand?

Has the boss brought someone in to replace you and said, "Okay, Coldtea, we found someone to replace you at your job. He's as good as you and he'll take a 10% cut in salary over what we pay you. Do you want to take a pay cut so you can stay?"

That would be the upper hand.

Before that, it's just a discussion.

Re: Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

#348

Post by supercanuck »

justadeveloper2 wrote: post #233
bitexploder wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The research I am aware of says if someone comes into your office with a competing offer they are likely to be gone in 6 months. https://hbr.org/2016/07/setting-the-record-straight-using-an... Outside offers to get a raise are a risky business at best. If someone is unhappy enough to do this it isn't just compensation most of the time.

So you get six more months out of a skilled employee. Most managers I know would take that deal. They would see it as an opportunity to have six more months to retain that person or at least kick the can down the road a bit longer.

This is the difference, in my opinion, where they let their pride get in the way of good decision making.

The probability of someone leaving didn't change because of the new offer, the manager perceives a power differential and is responding to that.

Re: Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

#349

Post by JoeAltmaier »

_Codemonkeyism wrote: post #322
elnygren wrote: post #107

Best way to increase salary at current workplace? Get offers from other companies & ask for a meeting with your boss (or whoever decides your pay, so HR etc.). Bring up the offers, discuss what you'd get from there and also go through the potential career you could build at those companies. For example: Consultancy X would pay me $k/mo and every 6months it will go up the ladder if I perform well. With this kind of di…

Might work somewhere else. I always felt blackmailed in a situation like this and wished the employee all the best with his new job. [Edit] To clarify the blackmail note: It's better to talk in the weekly 1:1 about salary expectations, changing markets or during people development focus, than to pull up a competing offer out of your hat while not talking about your dissatisfaction with pay during weekly 1:1s. 1. If t…

Blackmailed by what? The market? Some of those points are excuses for doing nothing.

#2 especially - what, they'll find a better and better job every six months? Not likely. If somebody can show you how they'd be paid better somewhere else, deal with it. Denial gets you nowhere.

#3 is exactly what the above remark addresses. If I can show my boss I'd be treated properly elsewhere, the boss sure better get on board and start doing those things.

Re: Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

#350

Post by usrusr »

djslakor wrote: post #236
scaryclam wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I imagine this is good advice in some places, but as a line manager, if you pull this on me I'm more than likely to shake your hand and wish you luck in your new job. In a lot of places, having a talk with your manager about your salary before going off and actively looking for other offers is going to go down a lot better. Most line managers worth working for, value their teams and will fight for them if they are un…

> but as a line manager, if you pull this on me I'm more than likely to shake your hand and wish you luck in your new job. "Pull this on you"? You sound like a real joy to work for. This is expressly why I choose gigs where I'm working directly for an owner if at all possible. If you've created value, owners know how important you are and will take your request seriously as long as it's reasonable. In my career, I ha…

> Letting everyone know they'll immediately be shown the door if they dare request an increase would create a terrible culture.

On the other hand, sending every other employee the clear message that the only way to get a raise is by showing up with a better offer isn't the path to the best of cultures either.

Those that imitate the tactic are not the ones to be concerned about, the others are, those who have nonmonetary reasons to stay. Employment isn't equally fungible to all employees. The less mobile will feel screwed and their motivation and productivity will suffer. Getting paid less than market rate is much easier to not mind about than getting paid less than the guy across the table. Secrecy could be a solution, but before you embrace it all too enthusiastically ask yourself twice about the gossip level in the organization.

In the end, the ratio of "will imitate" employees to "will grudgingly accept" employees determines the better answer. The former will hate "aggressive bargaining will not be tolerated", the latter will hate "only aggressive bargaining will be rewarded".

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