In Urban China, Cash Is Rapidly Becoming Obsolete • Hacker News Board

Re: In Urban China, Cash Is Rapidly Becoming Obsolete

#281

Post by MichaelBurge » Mon, Jul 17, 2017, 2:22 PM UTC

matz1 wrote: post #261

MichaelBurge wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me, "most" implies "at least 95%". That's because it's used to exclude a possibility: If most programming languages have if statements, then if I hear about your new language I can assume it has if statements without checking further. To use a simple majority means that you'd have to accept a simple statement like "Most programmers use Javascript"[1], and that's too weak to use for any reasoning. [1] https://web.a…

No, it can also mean more than half.

I asked a few friends how they use the word, and apparently there are people that use it to mean "nearly all" and people that use it to mean "more than half", and the first group doesn't realize the second group exists.

This paper[1] gives a couple interpretations, none of which are as strict as the one I use. I wonder if I mixed up "conversational implicatures" with a heuristic for logical implication.

In any case, I've apparently been wrong about the meaning of a basic English word my whole life, and I can't find a good cover story to hide the mistake.

[1] http://www.zas.gwz-berlin.de/fileadmin/mitarbeiter/solt/Most...

Re: In Urban China, Cash Is Rapidly Becoming Obsolete

#282

Post by abalone » Mon, Jul 17, 2017, 2:28 PM UTC

michaelmrose wrote: post #118

abalone wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the transaction fee, for many, is perceived as a rip off Only if you're a merchant. Most of the 2-3% fee is transferred to consumers via reward programs. It's important to understand that merchants and consumers face different incentives and that US card networks have aligned themselves with consumers.

The merchant is charging more to cover the fees. THEN the user often gets 1% or less back in rewards that are both less flexible and less useful than more cash in your pocket.

> The merchant is charging more to cover the fees.

This is what everyone assumes, but it turns out it's false. We are fortunate to have some experimental evidence on this. In 2003 Australia slashed interchange fees through regulation. Prices did not decline.

"...retailers saved more than $400 million (Australian) annually in fee revenue after interchange rates there were cut, but there was no evidence that they passed any of the savings on to consumers. Instead, consumers saw higher card fees, a reduction in loyalty benefits, and the introduction of surcharges of up to 3% on credit card transactions, the report found."[1]

[1] http://www.digitaltransactions.net/news/story/Report_-Austra...

Re: In Urban China, Cash Is Rapidly Becoming Obsolete

#283

Post by TheCoelacanth » Mon, Jul 17, 2017, 2:48 PM UTC

DrScump wrote: post #164

RealityNow wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in NYC, and most stores seem to have $5-10 credit card minimums. America needs to admit that it's no longer the bastion of innovation that it once was (I say this as an American. If anyone doesn't believe me, just take a trip to East Asia). Americans are complacent and fine with not having the cutting edge (not to mention our failing infrastructure). I wish there was a way to change this attitude, but it feels…

Generally (and excluding AmEx), requiring minimum purchases is a violation of the merchant-processor agreement.

That was the case until 2010, but since then the law requires that processors allow merchants to have a minimum purchase requirement of up to $10.

Re: In Urban China, Cash Is Rapidly Becoming Obsolete

#284

Post by mac01021 » Mon, Jul 17, 2017, 2:53 PM UTC

zanny wrote: post #186

williamle8300 wrote: post #33

No thanks. Cash is king. Money should never be traceable, and you should be able to buy with anonymity.

Except most people don't care if they are being tracked and if they aren't anonymous, so systems like these emerge using the lack of anonymity as a feature. I am one of the folk in the inevitability of cryptocurrency camp (not btc or any existant coin, though) but that world is one where it becomes very easy to correlate wallets, or at least where the funds come from, with the person making the purchases. For everyon…

Maybe bitcoin. Not gold: https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2642475/nasa-to-explore-astero...

Re: In Urban China, Cash Is Rapidly Becoming Obsolete

#285

Post by etblg » Mon, Jul 17, 2017, 2:53 PM UTC

blahedo wrote: post #180

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #15

I think this article hit the nail on the head when it pointed out that being ahead of the curve at one time (with Japan and their advanced flip phones in the early 2000s) can make it harder to adopt the next big advance because what you have is already "good enough". Thus, in the US, I suspect that mobile payments haven't taken off as much because they are only very slightly faster to use than a credit card, as oppos…

> as opposed to cash, which is much slower with people counting out amounts and cashiers counting out change I can't really let that comment stand. Cash transactions go way faster than credit card transactions in my experience. (They'd go faster still if prices were posted with tax included, but that's a different issue.) Hand over the card, swipe the card, hand back the card, wait for the receipt to print, get a pen…

It works better in places that have tap to pay (you know, the developed world), you just tap your card on the terminal and it's done, quicker than swiping, quicker than cash even.

Re: In Urban China, Cash Is Rapidly Becoming Obsolete

#286

Post by _ptgt » Mon, Jul 17, 2017, 2:55 PM UTC

chrischen wrote: post #75

thablackbull wrote: post #21

I think this is a good illustration of the different approach in how China and America approach the consumer economics space. In America, there is a very heavy reliance on "trickle down". We create a "best-in-class", "top-of-the-line" product that only the elite and wealthy can buy into. These people then set the tone of how it will develop in the future. The first mover also tries to do everything in their power to…

Well they do have communist socialist roots.

China has been has been capitalist under the CCP (including the time spent pivoting towards it) longer than it was ever actually communist. Their "roots" in communism aren't that deep.

Re: In Urban China, Cash Is Rapidly Becoming Obsolete

#287

Post by la_oveja » Mon, Jul 17, 2017, 2:59 PM UTC

mrkrabo wrote: post #147

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think most people pay their balance off every month in the USA. Credit card doesn't mean borrowing. The big problem with credit cards in China is fraud: banks like ICBC will put the burden of proof on the card holder when a fraud transaction occurs, rather than the merchant as in the west. I really hate ICBC. Anyways, debit cards work just like QR pay does, just like UnionPay already does. The problem QR codes are…

Why credit cards and not debit cards?

I can't pay with credit cards in a lot of places online (I'm from the EU)

Re: In Urban China, Cash Is Rapidly Becoming Obsolete

#288

Post by digi_owl » Mon, Jul 17, 2017, 2:59 PM UTC

uiri wrote: post #239

thehardsphere wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The chip doesn't add any additional security to the card compared to what was available previously; US credit card companies have only added it to avoid additional legislation from Congress. Also, the whole reason Europe had the chip and the US didn't was because phone lines in the US were better than ones in Europe, so it was vastly easier to do a quick authorization check in the US. The phone lines were not "good e…

Actually, the data on the magnetic stripe was in plaintext. The chip has a digitally signed copy of that data. This allows the bank to authenticate the card as valid and eliminates attacks where a fake card is made with stolen data put onto the stripe. This does nothing for online payments but very effectively curbs fraudulent card present transactions.

It goes beyond that, unless the US implementation is different to the one i am (somewhat) familiar with.

The chip is an active participant in the authentication.

it will receive digital signatures from the bank and the terminal, and if said signatures are found valid, release the payment info stored.

Re: In Urban China, Cash Is Rapidly Becoming Obsolete

#289

Post by ksec » Mon, Jul 17, 2017, 3:03 PM UTC

Some Perspective and Experience While i was in China.

I couldn't set up my WePay in time, so like the Author, I had to use Cash. And from my experience between a Tier 2 City and Tier 1 City like Shanghai, it is actually those Tier 2-3 City refuse to accept cash. They thought Cash were cumbersome. And Shanghai may be more welcoming cash / Credit Cards for variety of reasons ( Likely privacy ).

I tried to buy breakfast for $2, ~20 cents in USD, i didn't have WePay so I paid in cash. The Shop owner said she didn't have any changes and decide to give me the meal for free.

Over the 15 days, I kept thinking about QR code as Tech. Trust me, it is crap. I dont believe there is that much time difference holding up the queue as noted in the article. You have to Open up WeChat, and let each other scan, input your payment by youself, show them you have paid. To me this is very backwards. Octopus in Hong Kong, Scuria in Japan, Oyster Card in London Transport, Offline Mobile Payment from Master Card and Visa, All these are 10x better in UX. The merchants input my bill, I beep. That is it.

Then suddenly one day it clicked, and I knew why QR Code succeed. With NFC or any other Wireless payment, you need something, a electronics, a beacon or what ever for sellers to work. With QR Code, They "Print" a QR Code and laminated it. And you can photocopy as many pieces as you want. The barrier of entry for QR Code is so low every one could use it. At the expense of consumer UX.

And then weeks after I visited China, Apple announced in WWDC, iOS 11 will come with Auto opening QR Code in Camera mode. That, may have just made the friction of using QR Code much more bearable for me. And it is likely both tech will exist side by side in the long future. I cant see QR Code as it is used today ever getting replaced by the more expensive NFC solution, and NFC will likely stay in transport and other areas.

Re: In Urban China, Cash Is Rapidly Becoming Obsolete

#290

Post by thehardsphere » Mon, Jul 17, 2017, 3:06 PM UTC

digi_owl wrote: post #288

uiri wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, the data on the magnetic stripe was in plaintext. The chip has a digitally signed copy of that data. This allows the bank to authenticate the card as valid and eliminates attacks where a fake card is made with stolen data put onto the stripe. This does nothing for online payments but very effectively curbs fraudulent card present transactions.

It goes beyond that, unless the US implementation is different to the one i am (somewhat) familiar with. The chip is an active participant in the authentication. it will receive digital signatures from the bank and the terminal, and if said signatures are found valid, release the payment info stored.

I do know the US implementation is different, but I do not know if it is different in regards to this highly relevant information.