Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

forbes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

231–240 of 560 posts

Re: Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

#231

Post by justadeveloper2 »

jacquesm wrote: post #201
scaryclam wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I imagine this is good advice in some places, but as a line manager, if you pull this on me I'm more than likely to shake your hand and wish you luck in your new job. In a lot of places, having a talk with your manager about your salary before going off and actively looking for other offers is going to go down a lot better. Most line managers worth working for, value their teams and will fight for them if they are un…

> but as a line manager, if you pull this on me I'm more than likely to shake your hand and wish you luck in your new job. As your potential employee I'd be more than happy to shake your hand and leave. Very rarely does a company deserve employee loyalty, and you as a linemanager should at least try to earn your employee's loyalty by paying them what they are worth, rather than what you can get away with. Remember, y…

That effectively never happens, or hasn't happened for me. My relationships with managers have always been cordial but we both know the truth. As a developer, it is very hard to ever become anything but a developer. Companies say they have career paths for developers to follow that are non-management tracks, but they effectively don't. You...just...move...on. Any salary increases I have gotten were at the forefront of being hired on and my skill at negotiating was all make or break for me and I have screwed it up in the past.

I did just recently have a good turn where the recruiter who helped me land my current job helped negotiate a bit higher pay and a week of vacation. I wasn't going to push that hard because I needed to be working and not sitting on my ass, but he did this for me without my asking and it worked. I was pretty thrilled that after so many years, someone else gave a damn about me. First time.

Re: Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

#232

Post by thomaskcr »

dustinmoris wrote: post #128
elnygren wrote: post #107

Best way to increase salary at current workplace? Get offers from other companies & ask for a meeting with your boss (or whoever decides your pay, so HR etc.). Bring up the offers, discuss what you'd get from there and also go through the potential career you could build at those companies. For example: Consultancy X would pay me $k/mo and every 6months it will go up the ladder if I perform well. With this kind of di…

Couldn't agree more. Basically your current employer should really pay you what the salary you would get somewhere else plus an additional markup for the internal knowledge which you have already acquired (you should put a value on that as well). Also don't believe any line manager or anyone else here posting that this is not a good strategy, because remember, every line manager is only an employee as well and has a…

It's possible to be more valuable to another company. I had a developer ask me for more money and I was just honest, if he likes working here he can stay because he was a good developer but he would undoubtedly earn more elsewhere. He just wasn't valuable to me because I had to be more involved in is projects, going to meetings with him for example. He was a great developer, but the climate of my company was a smaller company with strong personalities at the mid-level for the groups we worked with, if you weren't confident you got destroyed. He ended up getting a much higher offer, tried negotiating a small raise (especially compared to his offer, he still would have been at least 30% below that offer) and he just literally was not worth another penny to me but I know he's doing really well at his new company.

Re: Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

#233

Post by justadeveloper2 »

bitexploder wrote: post #192
boomboomsubban wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In a lot of places, having a talk with your manager about your salary before going off and actively looking for other offers is going to go down a lot better. Most line managers worth working for, value their teams and will fight for them if they are unhappy, without the threats. This doesn't agree with the research here, and your first statement doesn't agree with your second. If you value your team, they shouldn't…

The research I am aware of says if someone comes into your office with a competing offer they are likely to be gone in 6 months. https://hbr.org/2016/07/setting-the-record-straight-using-an... Outside offers to get a raise are a risky business at best. If someone is unhappy enough to do this it isn't just compensation most of the time.

So you get six more months out of a skilled employee. Most managers I know would take that deal. They would see it as an opportunity to have six more months to retain that person or at least kick the can down the road a bit longer.

Re: Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

#234

Post by Marazan »

thehardsphere wrote: post #159
lostboys67 wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lol I don't mean to sound mean but this is not how the world works

Actually, it is how the world works. If there was really a gender pay gap for women who are doing the exact same work as men with the exact same experience as men, then it would be trivial for employers to reduce their costs by only hiring women. Yet, nobody ever does this.

You have that arse backwards - women aren't paid less because companies think they can get away with it. Women are paid less because they are valued less for doing the same job. Companies think the are less valuable.

As a result they do not seek to hire people they value less.

Re: Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

#235

Post by le-mark »

justadeveloper2 wrote: post #229
jaypaulynice wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Never stay at a job once you've shown your manager you have other offers. Use the current job to up your salary in the next job. Again never stay...you'll be gone in time for sure.

That's good advice. Chances are if you are thinking about moving on it is not just the pay that's a problem. I have seen this situation play out so many times. People who don't move around aren't being paid what they're worth and are effectively leaving money on the table. The Forbes article only scratches at the issues involved in the tech biz and each point made could have a full article written about it.

I had the pleasure of arguing for a team members promotion once (ie a raise effetively). The domain our team of 5 worked in was pretty challenging (heavy algorithmic stuff). I spent a year trying to train up my team, and although they improved, I still felt like I had to do the hard stuff myself. With the exception of one developer. For example if a project was particularly hairy or the time frame was too short, it was either me or him doing it. And I couldn't give him all the hard stuff so I ended doing a lot more coding than I had time for.

I went to my boss and said, X is carrying my team, he does more than any two other developers combined. He needs a raise, I can't lose him! And he got it.

If you got someone who's good, that's what it boils down, either play ball or lose them.

Re: Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

#236

Post by djslakor »

scaryclam wrote: post #112
elnygren wrote: post #107

Best way to increase salary at current workplace? Get offers from other companies & ask for a meeting with your boss (or whoever decides your pay, so HR etc.). Bring up the offers, discuss what you'd get from there and also go through the potential career you could build at those companies. For example: Consultancy X would pay me $k/mo and every 6months it will go up the ladder if I perform well. With this kind of di…

I imagine this is good advice in some places, but as a line manager, if you pull this on me I'm more than likely to shake your hand and wish you luck in your new job. In a lot of places, having a talk with your manager about your salary before going off and actively looking for other offers is going to go down a lot better. Most line managers worth working for, value their teams and will fight for them if they are un…

> but as a line manager, if you pull this on me I'm more than likely to shake your hand and wish you luck in your new job.

"Pull this on you"? You sound like a real joy to work for.

This is expressly why I choose gigs where I'm working directly for an owner if at all possible. If you've created value, owners know how important you are and will take your request seriously as long as it's reasonable.

In my career, I have received 100% of the raises I've requested ... at least a half dozen times. I've never once received a no or even negative push back. Owners were eager to retain me.

Even if your intention as a "line manager" is to not give the raise, the right move is to at least feign consideration for a few days and show the employee his request at least matters enough to think about.

Letting everyone know they'll immediately be shown the door if they dare request an increase would create a terrible culture. Clueless management.

Re: Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

#237

Post by maxxxxx »

kurtisc wrote: post #205
cgio wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For how long has he stayed around? Or does he not report to anyone? Director sounds like an employee role too...

Director is the UK term for CEO

This particular guy is a middle manager. In the US typically right under VP.

He has been there for around 10 years. The fact that he has stayed on for 10 years while mistrusting people who have worked for him for the same time doesn't make sense. But neither does it for managers who have nice offices to promote open office arrangements for their workers. Hypocrites are everywhere.

Re: Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

#238

Post by sidlls »

conanbatt wrote: post #185
dustinmoris wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couldn't agree more. Basically your current employer should really pay you what the salary you would get somewhere else plus an additional markup for the internal knowledge which you have already acquired (you should put a value on that as well). Also don't believe any line manager or anyone else here posting that this is not a good strategy, because remember, every line manager is only an employee as well and has a…

> Couldn't agree more. Basically your current employer should really pay you what the salary you would get somewhere else plus an additional markup for the internal knowledge which you have already acquired (you should put a value on that as well). This works both ways. The value of internal knowledge helps both parties, because as an employee you dont know if x other company is good to work at, or that you would lik…

> The fact that lots of people stay with a lower salary in a job is a testament that it is often the employees that choose to pay that fee.

That employees "pay that fee" doesn't indicate why. It also doesn't provide insight into whether it makes economic sense for them to do so.

Re: Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

#239

Post by pc86 »

mamon wrote: post #220
TurboHaskal wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I imagine this is good advice in some places, but as a line manager, if you > pull this on me I'm more than likely to shake your hand and wish you luck in > your new job. Fortunately for us not all line managers have such inflated egos and don't take such requests down to a personal level.

It's not ego, it's just "do not negotiate with terrorists" approach adapted to the workplace. If you make such concession for one employee, the next day you'll have 5 others with similar demands. EDIT: One more thing: the reason why it is often easier to get a raise by changing jobs instead of negotiating it in your current workplace is information asymmetry. Your current employer knows you all too well, so it is har…

Well if you're paying half a dozen people below market, that's sort of to be expected, isn't it?

Management knows the market rate for a given role. Let's say a good-not-great senior developer (as in give them a code base and a quiet room and you've got substantive code on day 1 or 2) commands $100k cash comp to make the math easy. You take the job for 10% below market for whatever those reasons happen to be. Maybe your last job was only $95k but this one has a much better vacation/retirement package.

If you go to your boss after 6-12 months of being a good senior dev and a good employee (meaning all the admin nonsense that comes along with being an employee - meetings, timely communication, generally not being an asshole, etc) and say that market rate is $100k, you're getting paid $90k, and you'd like $100-105k, they know that's a fair ask. Whether they are willing and/or able to actually pay you that ask is another thing.

My point being that there's nothing "terroristic" about asking for what you're worth. You can do it without a competing offer, but often times a competing offer is the easiest way to get something close to a market rate number.

Re: Employees Who Stay in Companies Longer Than Two Years Get Paid 50% Less

#240

Post by drchickensalad »

calafrax wrote: post #212
elnygren wrote: post #107

Best way to increase salary at current workplace? Get offers from other companies & ask for a meeting with your boss (or whoever decides your pay, so HR etc.). Bring up the offers, discuss what you'd get from there and also go through the potential career you could build at those companies. For example: Consultancy X would pay me $k/mo and every 6months it will go up the ladder if I perform well. With this kind of di…

This attitude is horrible just like the Forbes article. This situation is only happening because of bubble cash and a lot of inexperienced leadership with too much money on their hands. Once the bubble pops you will see all of these people with a resumes full of 6-12 month stints and outrageous salary expectations working at Starbucks (if they are lucky) and everyone who puts in years for reasonable salaries still em…

To play devil's advocate, what makes them unemployable in that scenario? Is it just that employers are so picky as to commonly choose people who stay at a company longer over all other factors? Also saying they have to work at Starbucks implies they can't get ANY software job, which I'm not sure I see the reason for.
Post reply on HN