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Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

issues.apache.org

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Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#341

Post by SwellJoe »

blazespin wrote: post #338
SwellJoe wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you name an example of when a patent was used by a small company in the software industry to "dethrone" a very large company? I'm having a hard time coming up with any examples; the lawsuits that come to mind are patent trolls, where the "little" company is a non-practicing entity so they can't be counter-sued for violating the giant's portfolio of patents. But, you sound pretty certain, so I want to figure out w…

Dethrone, no, but certainly sue for 100s of millions of dollars.

OK, can you name an example of that?

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#342

Post by aplummer »

captainmuon wrote: post #155
neilparikh wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it sane to lose the patent grant if you are a aggressor in a patent lawsuit against Facebook (for any patent, even ones unrelated to React)? The clause also doesn't explicitly cover software patents only, so if Facebook infringes on your hardware patents (which is plausible, since Facebook does hardware related work as well), you still can't sue them.

I think the spirit is that patents are not legitimate. Suing for patent infringement is not considered exercising a legal right, it's considered being a dick and vandalizing someones property. So this is not to be read like a contract between to businesses, but like a truce. It might as well say "we agree to not destroy your business using dirty tricks if you don't attempt the same". Of course, opinions on that are d…

> Suing for patent infringement is not considered exercising a legal right, it's considered being a dick and vandalizing someones property. So this is not to be read like a contract between to businesses, but like a truce.

This is an oversimplification. There are plenty of mum and dad inventors who would get destroyed by large companies but for relying on patent protection for their life's work.

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#344

Post by blazespin »

SwellJoe wrote: post #341
blazespin wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dethrone, no, but certainly sue for 100s of millions of dollars.

OK, can you name an example of that?

It's the whole point of patents. You want me to give you a list of patent lawsuits? :) Google is your friend.

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#345

Post by TokenDiversity »

sctb wrote: post #317
TokenDiversity wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's called PR and google has mastered that art. I dare them to open source gmail's spam filter. There are so few email solutions right now out there. They are basically a monopoly. They could use some competition. Feel free to downvote google fanboys :). You're no different from MS fans for 90s

Please don't violate the guidelines by rudely complaining about downvotes: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

oooo ban me cuz I don't think mr digital is smart enough to make this forum any less fanboyish.

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#346

Post by jaredklewis »

numair wrote: post #18

Finally, people are beginning to realize the insanity of this entire PATENTS file situation! When I first brought up how misguided people were for embracing React and projects with this license, I was downvoted to hell on HN. But really, everyone, THINK ABOUT IT. This is a company that glorifies and celebrates IP theft from others, and lionizes their employees who successfully clone others’ projects. They’ve built th…

If we can just remove emotion for a little bit, and coldly apply law and the terms of the license to fact, the picture is really not so dire.

- As stated in the standard BSD 3 clause, you're more or less licensed to do whatever you want with the software.

- The above doesn't give you a patent grant (at least not an explicit one), so Facebook also grants you a license to use any patents they have associated with the software.

- The ONLY possible way you can lose the above patent grant is if YOU sue Facebook for patent infringement.

Even if we assume, for the sake of argument, that everyone working at Facebook is a child of Satan, the only thing your company has to do to not lose the patent grant is NOT SUE Facebook for patent infringement. Seems pretty simple, no?

If your company is one that plans to, as part of its business plan, make money by suing companies like Facebook for patent infringement (which I have nothing against by the way), probably don't use react . Everyone else, what is there to lose?

Is the BSD-3 + PATENTS as nice as the Apache 2? No. Is it anything to get hysterical over? I can't see why.

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#347

Post by merijnv »

khuey wrote: post #277
captainmuon wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if there was no patent grant, and just the BSD license? Then you have no patent protection in the first place! You are in the same situation as when the patent grant expired because you sued them. I don't see how this is any better. You do not give them a license to use any patent. You are right that in practice the non-enforcement means that they can willy-nilly use your patents. But if we are arguing about fac…

Yes, you're right that "BSD+patent"+"revoked patent grant because you sued Facebook over another patent" is pretty much the same as just BSD from the start. Licensing software you know you have patents on under BSD only with no patent grant would be pretty awful, of course. If Facebook wanted to be the good guys here they would license under Apache 2.0 or write their own symmetric patent grant. They already relicense…

> "BSD+patent"+"revoked patent grant because you sued Facebook over another patent" is pretty much the same as just BSD from the start.

Not really. If you have BSD with no patent grants you can at least argue that there's an implicit patent grant. If there's an explicit patent grant which you violated/got terminated that defence is clearly not going to fly.

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#348

Post by tomelders »

Lazare wrote: post #326
tomelders wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the patent grant applies to everything you make, not just anything involving react.

I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say. The patent grant applies to Facebook's patents (if any) on the tech used in React . > I think the patent grant applies to everything you make Yes, if you have a patent grant from using React, it would be a defence from claims that things you have written that do not use React violate patents included in the grant.

I just re-read it, you're correct. It only covers React

> For avoidance of doubt, no license is granted under Facebook's rights in any patent claims that are infringed by (i) modifications to the Software made by you or any third party or (ii) the Software in combination with any software or other technology.

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#349

Post by Yizahi »

numair wrote: post #18

Finally, people are beginning to realize the insanity of this entire PATENTS file situation! When I first brought up how misguided people were for embracing React and projects with this license, I was downvoted to hell on HN. But really, everyone, THINK ABOUT IT. This is a company that glorifies and celebrates IP theft from others, and lionizes their employees who successfully clone others’ projects. They’ve built th…

In this thread (unrelated) - nobody can spell fuchsia :)

https://blog.xkcd.com/2010/05/03/color-survey-results/ (at the end of post)

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#350

Post by Yizahi »

khuey wrote: post #273
briandear wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if I understand correctly, if I were to use React for a marketing website about my patented system for and Facebook steals/uses that extremely valuable invention, I can’t sue Facebook by virtue of using React? Obviously, if that were to happen, you’d simply have to stop using React or else you’d get countersued for using React without a license right? Why would anyone use React ever if that’s how it works? It feel…

Yes, your understanding is largely correct. To be clear, you can still sue Facebook for stealing your patented invention, but then your grant to any patents that your use of React infringes would expire and Facebook could countersue over that. Facebook legal's response to this concern has been largely obfuscation and "trust us" which is not encouraging. They did change the patent grant two years ago to allow you to a…

> They did change the patent grant two years ago

Please explain to me - are they able to change it again at any time in the future to "unclear" it again or just change wording altogether? Will it affect all users retroactively in that case? Because all this "they had bad wording in license but they changed it so we can use it now" sounds kinda crazy.

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