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In Urban China, Cash Is Rapidly Becoming Obsolete

nytimes.com

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Re: In Urban China, Cash Is Rapidly Becoming Obsolete

#91

Post by slantaclaus »

RealityNow wrote: post #73
thablackbull wrote: post #21

I think this is a good illustration of the different approach in how China and America approach the consumer economics space. In America, there is a very heavy reliance on "trickle down". We create a "best-in-class", "top-of-the-line" product that only the elite and wealthy can buy into. These people then set the tone of how it will develop in the future. The first mover also tries to do everything in their power to…

I live in NYC, and most stores seem to have $5-10 credit card minimums. America needs to admit that it's no longer the bastion of innovation that it once was (I say this as an American. If anyone doesn't believe me, just take a trip to East Asia). Americans are complacent and fine with not having the cutting edge (not to mention our failing infrastructure). I wish there was a way to change this attitude, but it feels…

South Carolina resident here, no credit card minimums.

Re: In Urban China, Cash Is Rapidly Becoming Obsolete

#92

Post by grecy »

NamTaf wrote: post #52

Everyone in Australia just uses paypass/paywave contactless payment with their credit cards. I rarely carry any signifiant amount of crash for that reason. It's essentially the same as using your phone except you use your credit card and doesn't require a PIN or anything for signature is no longer allowed . Without having used WeChat's approach with QR code scanning, it doesn't seem that different for the end user in…

> Everyone in Australia just uses paypass/paywave contactless payment with their credit cards

It's the same in Canada.

Whenever I go to the US I feel like I'm going backwards in time.

Re: In Urban China, Cash Is Rapidly Becoming Obsolete

#93

Post by Hasz »

Cash will never die.

Fundamentally, a wechat/alipay transaction is traceable. Traceability is great for expense reports, but a non-starter if you're a drug dealer -- especially with China's draconian drug laws.

Even if you were to launder the money through fronts or a series of transactions, a state level actor (i.e, China) would have no real difficulty in tracking down such activity. With cash, this becomes much, much harder in cost, time and manpower. Not impossible for a state, but certainly an effective deterrent from casual or low level investigation.

This difference in traceability will keep cash and other compact tangible mediums of value (precious gems and metals, ivory, drugs, etc) in use by subsets of the population for as long as people value the relative anonymity and are willing to put up with the costs and risks a physical medium entails.

Re: In Urban China, Cash Is Rapidly Becoming Obsolete

#94

Post by kuschku »

ocb wrote: post #58
kuschku wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany also doesn't really take credit cards. Well, didn't. The EU limited fees for credit cards to 0.125% recently, and while EC (now bought by MasterCard and called Maestro for SEPA) is still cheaper, credit cards start being affordable for merchants. But almost none support it yet. And Google still hasn't launched Android Pay, despite every ALDI having NFC. I'd prefer if there was a local NFC payment option actua…

Germany's aversion to credit cards is somewhat cultural, isn't it? Datenschutz, Datensicherheit, etc.

Well, it’s a few things.

Germany already had a well-working giro system by the time credit cards were invented – almost instant, free transfers between bank accounts were common.

Then, credit cards were obscenely expensive (and still are in some cases, many credit cards cost a hundred euros or more per year for the owner, and taking credit cards often costs 6-7% of sale price + 60€/month for the merchant, and merchants can’t ask credit card users to pay more, so merchants would go bankrupt if they’d do that).

And this is because credit cards in the US are only free and have bonuses because they’re basically a tax on the less educated, with high fees and interest. Germany, which traditionally has a culture where having debt means being guilty (literally, that’s the same word), obviously is far more cautious, so far less profitable.

And then the EC cards happened, which introduced the EMV chip, were safer, faster, and had far lower fees, so they were supported everywhere.

And then there’s privacy.

And the fact that the US – especially MasterCard, VISA and PayPal – love stealing customers money in legal transactions inside of Germany just because it violates US law (which, fyi, does not apply in Germany, although the US pretends it does), as [1] and [2] show.

All in all, credit cards are a horribly insecure implementation of a ridiculous system that only works when it can scam enough people, interferes with local law, and doesn’t fit the strict privacy morals of Germany.

    ________________________
[1] https://cphpost.dk/news/international/us-snubs-out-legal-cig...

[2] https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/ka26b/paypal_bl...

Re: In Urban China, Cash Is Rapidly Becoming Obsolete

#95

Post by ec109685 »

justjimmy wrote: post #68

And for those rare places that only do cash, it's not uncommon for the person in line to turn around and ask a stranger for cash and they'll pay that person in a WeChat transfer. Done in seconds. Happened to me and observed it myself a couple of times. With digital wallets, there's zero need for credit cards and their predatory interest rates. China is just absolutely crushing it. The Amazon Self Serve store that's s…

> With digital wallets, there's zero need for credit cards and their predatory interest rates.

How is there zero need? If don't need to borrow money longer than 30 days, you pay zero interest. If you do need a bit longer to pay, you have that option.

Re: In Urban China, Cash Is Rapidly Becoming Obsolete

#97

Post by psy-q »

It's interesting that they worry about lock-in from Tencent and Alibaba in China while not mentioning the same lock-in and issues for Google, Microsoft and Apple in the rest of the world.

People who don't want to get a Google account already get a degraded product when using Android phones, and I'm not even sure an iPhone works without an Apple ID. That Google Wallet flopped is just a happy coincidence in this regard, but Apple Pay so far hasn't, and then we have the same situation there as with e.g. Alibaba.

Some nations like Switzerland at least have a unified national mobile payment platform (Twint in this case) carried by an alliance of banks. This doesn't put all the power with just one or two privately owned US or Chinese companies, and it brings banking regulations into the game. Maybe that approach should be copied, but it only works in countries that have those regulations and banks willing to cooperate.

Re: In Urban China, Cash Is Rapidly Becoming Obsolete

#98

Post by IIAOPSW »

thablackbull wrote: post #21

I think this is a good illustration of the different approach in how China and America approach the consumer economics space. In America, there is a very heavy reliance on "trickle down". We create a "best-in-class", "top-of-the-line" product that only the elite and wealthy can buy into. These people then set the tone of how it will develop in the future. The first mover also tries to do everything in their power to…

I don't see it as a class thing but it certainly is a culture thing. When the American's go to build their app, you get something out of silicon valley that is almost built for the programmers. It will use hardware that requires everyone to buy a new phone (like NFC). Things like QR codes would be derided as insecure and exploitable. It will comply with consumer protections.

In China the app will be made chabudao (good enough). It will use QR codes because its fast and its what your coder knows and its whats on everyones phone. Security exploit? Shenme? Consumer protections? How do I say "caveat emptor" in Chinese?

There's something to be said for the Chinese approach. By making something stupid, they've made something smart. Not all innovation requires technical accomplishment.

Edit: after thought. Credit where its due to alipay and wechat. The QR-code works even when my phone is temporarily without a connection. I don't know what goes on in the background, but it def saved me a few times from looking like an idiot with no way to pay for something.

Another point about dumb being smart. Alipay does have a sound based transaction system (like what crinkle tried to do). AFAIK no one ever uses it. The plain old dumb QR code is faster and better understood and is therefore better.

Re: In Urban China, Cash Is Rapidly Becoming Obsolete

#100

Post by erikb »

psy-q wrote: post #97

It's interesting that they worry about lock-in from Tencent and Alibaba in China while not mentioning the same lock-in and issues for Google, Microsoft and Apple in the rest of the world. People who don't want to get a Google account already get a degraded product when using Android phones, and I'm not even sure an iPhone works without an Apple ID. That Google Wallet flopped is just a happy coincidence in this regard…

Apple Pay hasn't flopped where? Actually it's the first time I here about its existence. So if it's not just 2 weeks old I strongly assume that it in fact has flopped. I have an iphone 6s currently btw.
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