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Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

issues.apache.org

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Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#271

Post by st3fan »

shp0ngle wrote: post #258
numair wrote: post #18

Finally, people are beginning to realize the insanity of this entire PATENTS file situation! When I first brought up how misguided people were for embracing React and projects with this license, I was downvoted to hell on HN. But really, everyone, THINK ABOUT IT. This is a company that glorifies and celebrates IP theft from others, and lionizes their employees who successfully clone others’ projects. They’ve built th…

If my company don't ever plan to sue Facebook for patents, is not involved with patents, doesn't care about patents and everyone leading the company thinks patents are bullshit, why should I worry?

You should worry because you don’t have a magic orb that lets you look into the future.

What if you got acquired. What if something unexpected happens. What if you got pulled into some suit against Facebook. There are a ton of things that could potentially happen.

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#272

Post by d0100 »

brooklyntribe wrote: post #193

I'm a vue.js guy myself. Think it's far more cooler then React. And not every going to face this issue, me thinks. :-)

Unless Facebook has a patent on some particular virtual-dom related tech that Vue uses. Then you got zero patent grants, and can be sued at any time.

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#273

Post by khuey »

briandear wrote: post #201
khuey wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you lose the patent rights if you sue Facebook for any patents period. > The license granted hereunder will terminate, automatically and without notice, if you (or any of your subsidiaries, corporate affiliates or agents) initiate directly or indirectly, or take a direct financial interest in, any Patent Assertion: (i) against Facebook or any of its subsidiaries or corporate affiliates If you have to agree not to…

So if I understand correctly, if I were to use React for a marketing website about my patented system for and Facebook steals/uses that extremely valuable invention, I can’t sue Facebook by virtue of using React? Obviously, if that were to happen, you’d simply have to stop using React or else you’d get countersued for using React without a license right? Why would anyone use React ever if that’s how it works? It feel…

Yes, your understanding is largely correct. To be clear, you can still sue Facebook for stealing your patented invention, but then your grant to any patents that your use of React infringes would expire and Facebook could countersue over that. Facebook legal's response to this concern has been largely obfuscation and "trust us" which is not encouraging. They did change the patent grant two years ago to allow you to assert patent claims against Facebook without losing the grant if Facebook sues you first, but that's of limited utility.

It's funny you mention Apple, because the Apple Public Source License has a very similar provision.

> 12.1 Termination. This License and the rights granted hereunder will terminate: > ... >(c) automatically without notice from Apple if You, at any time during the term of this License, commence an action for patent infringement against Apple; provided that Apple did not first commence an action for patent infringement against You in that instance.

The good news is that the Apple Public Source License is basically dead and not used for anything of importance.

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#274

Post by dchest »

vbernat wrote: post #245
dchest wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, it's not a copyright assignment, so Facebook should probably maintain the list of copyright owners somewhere (e.g. Go has (C) Go Authors and the list of authors is in a separate file), however, the CLA terms I quoted allow sublicensing. When signing the CLA, you grant Facebook the copyright license to your contributions, which Facebook then sublicenses to everyone else with the license of their choosing (as lon…

I honestly don't know what "sublicensing" exactly means. However, Canonical's CLA which explicitely says they can relicense at will has a special clause for that (and as a result, many people don't want to sign this CLA). I don't think that "sublicensing" (which is present in many CLA people are happy to sign) means the same thing.

Sublicensing means granting some or all rights licensed to you to third parties. The original license agreement for contributions is the CLA, the receiving party of the CLA sublicenses some of the rights from the CLA to others in the form of the project's copyright license.

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#275

Post by ams6110 »

sbarre wrote: post #32
Steeeve wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Considering almost every single large tech company is using React React isn't as popular in the real world as it is on HN.

Well, anecdotally speaking of course, my company does work for most of the major (a) banks, (b) telcos and (c) insurance companies in Canada, and the majority of them are moving from Angular 1.x to React (because Angular 4 is a mess) for their front-end work, both on the public and secure side of things. Hopefully they've all done their due diligence..

What sort of things would banks, telcos, and insurance companies typically patent? These don't strike me as innovation-oriented companies.

If you don't have any patents, you're not really risking anything using React.

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#276

Post by fencepost »

chrisco255 wrote: post #216
fencepost wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll call that a false equivalency, because only in my wildest dreams can I consider anything I'm working on equivalent to Microsoft. Among the Microsoft-level things I lack I'll count their legal teams, patent portfolio, and negotiating clout. Anything I as a solo or mostly-solo dev would put together to sell would almost certainly be sold to a company less than 0.1% Microsoft's size - even at the 1% level it's just…

Well, my point was that Microsoft has a very broad patent portfolio, as does Apple, and many other such companies that are using React in production. If they do not fear this patent clause, then I fail to see why your startup would. Especially if your startup has no patents at all (as is the case with most software startups). Apple & Microsoft would have a lot more to lose if they were somehow granting Facebook unlim…

I don't think their attorneys would let that fly, but I also think their attorneys most likely have already negotiated other contracts with Facebook that override whatever's in the React license.

This is not a tool for Facebook to be able to use against another multibillion major tech company. This is a tool for Facebook to be able to use against potentially disruptive tech upstarts of the sort that they were 10-15 years ago. Also, don't just think about Facebook's core business - remember that they're getting into all sorts of fields now. Do you think there are any VR related patents held by smallish companies that might be of interest to the owner of Oculus? If those companies are using React, Facebook now gets to negotiate with them from a position of "You've already basically given us permission to use your patented IP in our new headsets."

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#277

Post by khuey »

captainmuon wrote: post #154
khuey wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It maybe "on its face absolutely untrue" but it is true in practice. If Facebook infringes your patent and you sue them to enforce you lose the rights to use any patents React requires. So while you're not required to grant Facebook rights to use your patents, you are required not to enforce your rights relating to your patents against Facebook.

What if there was no patent grant, and just the BSD license? Then you have no patent protection in the first place! You are in the same situation as when the patent grant expired because you sued them. I don't see how this is any better. You do not give them a license to use any patent. You are right that in practice the non-enforcement means that they can willy-nilly use your patents. But if we are arguing about fac…

Yes, you're right that "BSD+patent"+"revoked patent grant because you sued Facebook over another patent" is pretty much the same as just BSD from the start. Licensing software you know you have patents on under BSD only with no patent grant would be pretty awful, of course.

If Facebook wanted to be the good guys here they would license under Apache 2.0 or write their own symmetric patent grant. They already relicensed RocksDB after Apache's move, perhaps they will do the rest of their stuff too.

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#278

Post by smichel17 »

bhickey wrote: post #264
Hasknewbie wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's anything else, I would say start by checking the Open Source Initiative Web site: https://opensource.org/licenses

Still, be cautious. The OSI has approved a number of bad licenses. The UPL ( https://opensource.org/licenses/UPL ) stands out to me as one that should've been rejected.

Why?

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#279

Post by Alyssa3545 »

Waterluvian wrote: post #262
cma wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, the patent grant is not fully reciprocal. As I understand it: To use React, you give Facebook permission to use any of your software patents (edit: all patents, even on a new jet engine) throughout your whole company. Facebook gives you permission to use only the software patents necessary for React. If your company sues Facebook over an unrelated software patent (edit: as above, any patent), your React license…

The thing with legal documents is that you can author whatever you please and none of it really means anything until it is brought to the courts to be enforced. At that point we learn what parts of what was written are actually valid. Has any of this React patent usage agreement been tested yet?

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Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#280

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