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Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

issues.apache.org

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Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#261

Post by jwildeboer »

rwmj wrote: post #233
jwildeboer wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is plain wrong. Software patents exist and are enforced in the EU and other member states of the European Patent Treaty. The European Patent Office even has a nice FAQ on helping you get your software patents granted at: https://www.epo.org/law-practice/legal-texts/html/guidelines...

The situation is a bit more subtle than you make out. The EPT has clear language which excludes software from patentability, but that hasn't stopped lawyers from arguing that some software can be patented if it has a physical effect (even a minimal one). Wikipedia actually summarises it decently: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_patents_under_the_Eur...

The situation isn't even that subtle. The "physical effect" AKA the German Teaching has eroded into a "further technical effect" in the past decade. And with the UPC looming, things could get even worse. But that's getting off topic.

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#262

Post by Waterluvian »

cma wrote: post #35
numair wrote: post #18

Finally, people are beginning to realize the insanity of this entire PATENTS file situation! When I first brought up how misguided people were for embracing React and projects with this license, I was downvoted to hell on HN. But really, everyone, THINK ABOUT IT. This is a company that glorifies and celebrates IP theft from others, and lionizes their employees who successfully clone others’ projects. They’ve built th…

Yep, the patent grant is not fully reciprocal. As I understand it: To use React, you give Facebook permission to use any of your software patents (edit: all patents, even on a new jet engine) throughout your whole company. Facebook gives you permission to use only the software patents necessary for React. If your company sues Facebook over an unrelated software patent (edit: as above, any patent), your React license…

The thing with legal documents is that you can author whatever you please and none of it really means anything until it is brought to the courts to be enforced. At that point we learn what parts of what was written are actually valid.

Has any of this React patent usage agreement been tested yet?

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#263

Post by jjnoakes »

jbfr wrote: post #78
objclxt wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Off the top of my head big users of React include: * Apple (their entire dev docs site is built in it, and they've hosted Bay Area React user meet-ups) * Twitter (for their mobile web) * Microsoft (parts of Visual Studio use it) * Netflix (all over their frontend stack) ...as well as Dropbox, AirBnb, Venmo... So whilst I don't doubt you've discussed it with concerned counsel, there are huge corporations deploying Rea…

To add on to this list, even IBM with their large patent portfolio has a large number of teams deploying projects using React and other FB OSS technology. Disclaimer: I work for IBM.

Are those internal projects? Or external?

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#264

Post by bhickey »

Hasknewbie wrote: post #247
pmlnr wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I assumed the license was OK considering its popularity." Always check the licence. Public domain, MIT, simple, plain BSD, GPL (any version), apache - if it's anything else, be extremely cautious.

If it's anything else, I would say start by checking the Open Source Initiative Web site: https://opensource.org/licenses

Still, be cautious. The OSI has approved a number of bad licenses. The UPL (https://opensource.org/licenses/UPL) stands out to me as one that should've been rejected.

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#265

Post by Waterluvian »

softinio wrote: post #4

I really have no idea why react is so popular with such a silly license. I agree with this move. There are plenty of OSS projects out there without patent thing attached to its license so no reason to use react.

I'm bewildered by the number of individuals who are stating surprise at how/why people use react despite it's license. It feels like a very out of touch perspective. What % of React users read licenses or need to care about licenses?

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#267

Post by Tanegashima »

cma wrote: post #35
numair wrote: post #18

Finally, people are beginning to realize the insanity of this entire PATENTS file situation! When I first brought up how misguided people were for embracing React and projects with this license, I was downvoted to hell on HN. But really, everyone, THINK ABOUT IT. This is a company that glorifies and celebrates IP theft from others, and lionizes their employees who successfully clone others’ projects. They’ve built th…

Yep, the patent grant is not fully reciprocal. As I understand it: To use React, you give Facebook permission to use any of your software patents (edit: all patents, even on a new jet engine) throughout your whole company. Facebook gives you permission to use only the software patents necessary for React. If your company sues Facebook over an unrelated software patent (edit: as above, any patent), your React license…

> React

Learn Swift and Kotlin, and their GUI API's already, god damn it!

Or at least, Microsoft's solution...

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#268

Post by Waterluvian »

isaac_is_goat wrote: post #266

If you can't use React because of the license, use InfernoJS (MIT). In fact...you should probably use Inferno JS anyway.

I like having the alternative. But the problem is that 100% of your ecosystem needs to not use React. And that's the majority of the value I've gotten from using React: all the components I get from libraries like antd that save me a ton of prototyping time.

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#269

Post by vxNsr »

>> David Recordon Added Yesterday 21:10 Hi all, wanted to jump in here to let everyone know that the RocksDB team is adjusting the licensing such that it will be dual-licensed under the Apache 2 and GPL 2 (for MySQL compatibility) licenses. This should happen shortly and well ahead of August 31st. I'll leave the history and philosophy around licensing alone since it's generally a complex discussion to have and I'm not sure that it has actually been fully captured in this thread especially vis a vis Facebook's intent. Hopefully this morning's guidance to PMCs can be adjusted since I don't think any of us see a bunch of extra engineering effort as a desirable thing across the ASF projects which are already making use of RocksDB Thanks, --David

Looks like they're working on amending this issue, could very well be a case of legal getting involved and the regular engineers not realizing the change or simply not paying attention. Alternatively, maybe this is just crisis management and they were just hoping this wouldn't happen.

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#270

Post by kuschku »

Lazare wrote: post #133
learc83 wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Facebook can has patents that cover Preact, they likely cover parts of every JavaScript framework out there. React is a functional component library that uses the virtual DOM. It's well executed, but it's a simple concept.

Yep. And if Facebook has such patents, I wouldn't be surprised if Google, Microsoft, Oracle, etc. do too. The more you think about the ramifications, the more I come to the conclusion that software patents are an existential threat.

Tip: move to the EU.

The EU does not recognise software patents.

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