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Brazil to open 860K acres of protected Amazon rainforest to logging, mining, etc

independent.co.uk

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Re: Brazil to open 860K acres of protected Amazon rainforest to logging, mining, etc

#51

Post by RobertoG »

sytelus wrote: post #45
senorjazz wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same for Europe, although it was all cut down longer ago. The same of parts of the US. The trees and land are a resource for these countries with vast numbers living in poverty. Telling them they cannot use these resources just isn't going to work. If we non-Amazon countries want them to stop deforestation, we have to dig into our pockets. But we we don't. Ecuador tried it, requesting funds for not drilling for o…

The model where rich countries keeping paying to poor countries in exchange of not cutting down their own forests is unworkable. If people there are looking for genuine progress then they have to build schools, bridges, cities and so on. You won't be able to say that hey you guys live like how you used 1000 years ago and here's few dollars. However the bigger issue I think are the few evil people in those countries w…

"[..]the few evil people in those countries who look at its natural resources and see dollars instead."

The evil people are not only from those countries.

Those are the biggest mining companies: http://www.mining-technology.com/features/featuremining-gian...

Just an extract:

"Anglo American's wholly owned Minas-Rio iron ore project in Brazil and Sishen mine, part of its Kumba iron ore operations in South Africa are among the world's 11 biggest iron ore mines."

Re: Brazil to open 860K acres of protected Amazon rainforest to logging, mining, etc

#52

Post by jokoon »

I predict that in the future, brazil will be invaded to stop logging so that those trees can keep making oxygen.

I wonder, doesn't most oxygen come from those trees? I've read the expression "lung of the planet". Essentially it seems it's a matter of survival.

Although increased CO2 concentration might also accelerate the growth of trees, so I don't really know.

Re: Brazil to open 860K acres of protected Amazon rainforest to logging, mining, etc

#53

Post by igravious »

senorjazz wrote: post #8
the_absurdist wrote: post #3

Take a commercial flight where you have a chance to look down on the rainforest in Brazil or Peru. You'll be absolutely astonished and sickened at how much is already gone.

The same for Europe, although it was all cut down longer ago. The same of parts of the US. The trees and land are a resource for these countries with vast numbers living in poverty. Telling them they cannot use these resources just isn't going to work. If we non-Amazon countries want them to stop deforestation, we have to dig into our pockets. But we we don't. Ecuador tried it, requesting funds for not drilling for o…

I could not agree more. How dare we tell others what to do in their sovereign territory when we have never acquiesced and would never acquiesce to the same.

The "this time its different now that the whole planet is in danger" brigade really annoy the hell out of me. Say what you will about people who would plunder the earth for its resources, at least they're nominally honest about their dealings. But those who would tell the so-called less-developed what to do with their resources …

We've industrialized but they're meant to what? Survive on hand-outs? They're meant to skip the industrialization phase and leave their resources untapped. That's super fair. Given that the industrialized nations have caused the damage then why don't we roll out safe nuclear power and electric cars or something instead of trying to artificially hobble others who share our planet. Of course if you suggest that to the "save the rain-forest" brigade they'll start whining about how unsafe nuclear power is when all the time pollution from coal/oil/gas-powered stations and internal combustion vehicles ruins the lives of how many more each year?

I live in a country that used to be covered in dense medieval oak forests. Practically all gone now. How about we replant ours instead of telling others to stop cutting down their.

Re: Brazil to open 860K acres of protected Amazon rainforest to logging, mining, etc

#54

Post by diego_moita »

jokoon wrote: post #52

I predict that in the future, brazil will be invaded to stop logging so that those trees can keep making oxygen. I wonder, doesn't most oxygen come from those trees? I've read the expression "lung of the planet". Essentially it seems it's a matter of survival. Although increased CO2 concentration might also accelerate the growth of trees, so I don't really know.

> I predict that in the future, brazil will be invaded to stop logging so that those trees can keep making oxygen.

As a Brazilian I say that this is just plain stupid in 3 different levels:

1) World diplomacy is or should be ruled by the principle of Westphalian Sovereignty: the idea that each nation is free to conduct its internal affairs as it pleases.

2) Brazil is the 5th largest country in the world, one of the 10 largest economies and the 8th biggest population. Who has the resources to spare and fight a war with Brazil?

3) During the 90's the main argument by farmers and loggers for deforesting the Amazon was exactly arguments like yours. Back then this bullshit you say was called "internacionalização da Amazônia" and those parasites argument was: "we need to occupy the Amazon before the gringos do it". So, basically, when you say this bullshit you are supplying arguments to the enemy.

Please, stop this bullshit. It is dangerous. It makes the fight of Brazilian environmentalists even harder.

Re: Brazil to open 860K acres of protected Amazon rainforest to logging, mining, etc

#56

Post by FussyZeus »

sytelus wrote: post #45
senorjazz wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same for Europe, although it was all cut down longer ago. The same of parts of the US. The trees and land are a resource for these countries with vast numbers living in poverty. Telling them they cannot use these resources just isn't going to work. If we non-Amazon countries want them to stop deforestation, we have to dig into our pockets. But we we don't. Ecuador tried it, requesting funds for not drilling for o…

The model where rich countries keeping paying to poor countries in exchange of not cutting down their own forests is unworkable. If people there are looking for genuine progress then they have to build schools, bridges, cities and so on. You won't be able to say that hey you guys live like how you used 1000 years ago and here's few dollars. However the bigger issue I think are the few evil people in those countries w…

> One effective way to discourage this is put a worldwide ban of exported wood from Amazon. If major countries can come together on this then this could actually work.

Tell that to the ivory poachers. All a ban accomplishes is turning an industry that has demand underground, meaning they can now operate off the books, illegally, not pay proper wages, operate completely without regulation and if they run into competition, instead of working side one another they often kill each other.

Prohibition has literally never worked for literally anything.

Re: Brazil to open 860K acres of protected Amazon rainforest to logging, mining, etc

#57

Post by soneca »

jokoon wrote: post #52

I predict that in the future, brazil will be invaded to stop logging so that those trees can keep making oxygen. I wonder, doesn't most oxygen come from those trees? I've read the expression "lung of the planet". Essentially it seems it's a matter of survival. Although increased CO2 concentration might also accelerate the growth of trees, so I don't really know.

> I wonder, doesn't most oxygen come from those trees? I've read the expression "lung of the planet". Essentially it seems it's a matter of survival.

No, the express is stupid. Amazon is an old forest and consume almost all oxygen it produces. Oxygen come mostly from algae in the ocean.

Amazon is important for climate control and biodiversity.

Re: Brazil to open 860K acres of protected Amazon rainforest to logging, mining, etc

#58

Post by unclebucknasty »

FussyZeus wrote: post #56
sytelus wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The model where rich countries keeping paying to poor countries in exchange of not cutting down their own forests is unworkable. If people there are looking for genuine progress then they have to build schools, bridges, cities and so on. You won't be able to say that hey you guys live like how you used 1000 years ago and here's few dollars. However the bigger issue I think are the few evil people in those countries w…

> One effective way to discourage this is put a worldwide ban of exported wood from Amazon. If major countries can come together on this then this could actually work. Tell that to the ivory poachers. All a ban accomplishes is turning an industry that has demand underground, meaning they can now operate off the books, illegally, not pay proper wages, operate completely without regulation and if they run into competit…

>Prohibition has literally never worked for literally anything.

But, sanctions have.

Re: Brazil to open 860K acres of protected Amazon rainforest to logging, mining, etc

#59

Post by agentultra »

spodek wrote: post #10

What responsibility does a typical reader of HN have? What can a reader do?

Responsibility? I guess it depends on how responsible you feel.

What can you do? One of the easiest things is to stop eating meat.

http://www.onegreenplanet.org/animalsandnature/beef-producti...

Re: Brazil to open 860K acres of protected Amazon rainforest to logging, mining, etc

#60

Post by horsawlarway »

The irony in this comment is astounding!

You're literally forcing a moral perspective onto someone while in the same breath claiming that your moral perspective is that you shouldn't force views or standard onto others.

That's so fucking contradictory it's literally asinine.

---

To address your actual points:

>And destroy their culture and way of living in the process? Why? We don't have any right to force on them what you think is 'better' for them.

We objectively know in many cases medicine and health care that is better for them. Full stop.

>it's time that people finally realize that they do way more harm than good by forcing their views and 'standards' on others.

Prove it. You're making a huge claim here, where's the evidence? I'd argue that if your views and standards can't handle encounters with new or foreign views and standards, that they are clearly not suitable for practical application, and their days are numbered by matter of principle, not by any moral or ethical argument.

Finally, the land those people occupy represents a large earning for the other impoverished people in the country. Who are you to decide (from afar, with no on the ground insight) that their rights are more valuable than the other people?

Your entire argument is "feel good" but utterly useless, ill considered, and frankly a little disturbing.

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