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Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

issues.apache.org

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Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#151

Post by captainmuon »

I think this is an overreaction (pun accidental).

There are two things here: The copyright license, and the patent grant. Copyright applies to the concrete implementation. You have to agree to the license to be subject to it, and to legally use the code.

A potential patent applies to any implementation. Even if you write a clean-room clone of React, if it uses the same patent, Facebook has a patent claim. But that means the patent grant is not specific to the code; it doesn't even require consent, Facebook could allow you conditional patent usage even without your knowledge! A corollary is that you are strictly better off with the patent grant, it imposes no additional constraints on you.

License with no patent grant: Facebook can sue you for infringing patents, even if you are using a clone!

License with patent grant: Facebook cannot sue you for infringing patents, unless you do it first.

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Second, I think the philosophy behind the patent grant is twofold: 1) that software patents are not legitimate. Enforcing a patent is not seen as a legitimate right, but an annoyance, like pissing on someones lawn. From that point of view, it seems not asked too much from somebody to refrain from doing that. (I don't know if that was the idea of the people who drafted that license, but it wouldn't surprise me.)

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Another, unrelated observation (and please don't invalidate the first observations if this one is wrong as internet commentators are wont to do):

I see nowhere in the license [1] that it requires you to take the patent grant. Is that true? It would be silly to refuse it, because you are strictly better off with it, of course.

[1] https://github.com/facebook/react/blob/master/LICENSE

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#152

Post by cyphar »

cflewis wrote: post #76
numair wrote: post #18

Finally, people are beginning to realize the insanity of this entire PATENTS file situation! When I first brought up how misguided people were for embracing React and projects with this license, I was downvoted to hell on HN. But really, everyone, THINK ABOUT IT. This is a company that glorifies and celebrates IP theft from others, and lionizes their employees who successfully clone others’ projects. They’ve built th…

Important: IANAL and I am commenting from my personal reading In the case of Fuschia, I don't see any more restriction of end-user rights than Apache 2.0 would give you. The only real difference is this line: > This grant does not include claims that would be infringed only as a consequence of further modification of this implementation. That makes it clear if you make a modification to Fuschia, that infringes on a p…

Not to mention that patent law explcitly does not accept independent discovery as a defence for patent infringement, so I doubt that Apache 2.0 has any defences for that. I also don't believe GPLv3 does either but I would have to read through it again.

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#153

Post by madeofpalk »

kakarot wrote: post #79
olalonde wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is a company that glorifies and celebrates IP theft from others, and lionizes their employees who successfully clone others’ projects. What are you referring to?

Here's a good example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7tA3NNKF0Q

The irony of using Youtube, a platform that rose to fame after hosting pirated Viacom content, to highlight IP theft.

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#154

Post by captainmuon »

khuey wrote: post #68
carussell wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As I understand it: To use React, you give Facebook permission to use any of your software patents throughout your whole company. That is, on its face, absolutely untrue. Nowhere in the React patent terms does it specify that you grant Facebook rights to use your patents--not even to ones related to React. That's something that isn't in the React terms, nor does it seem to show up in any legal analyses published on…

It maybe "on its face absolutely untrue" but it is true in practice. If Facebook infringes your patent and you sue them to enforce you lose the rights to use any patents React requires. So while you're not required to grant Facebook rights to use your patents, you are required not to enforce your rights relating to your patents against Facebook.

What if there was no patent grant, and just the BSD license?

Then you have no patent protection in the first place! You are in the same situation as when the patent grant expired because you sued them. I don't see how this is any better.

You do not give them a license to use any patent. You are right that in practice the non-enforcement means that they can willy-nilly use your patents. But if we are arguing about factual ability vs legal rights - they can probably already to that, due to the fact that they likely have more money and better lawyers then you do.

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#155

Post by captainmuon »

neilparikh wrote: post #84
ori_b wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://github.com/facebook/react/blob/master/PATENTS Now where does it say that? The way I read it, so long as you don't sue Facebook, you have a patent grant. If you believe people when they say that their patent portfolios are purely defensive, there is no problem. On the other hand, being the aggressor in a patent lawsuit loses you the patent grant. This seems sane enough to me. The normal state of affairs is com…

Why is it sane to lose the patent grant if you are a aggressor in a patent lawsuit against Facebook (for any patent, even ones unrelated to React)? The clause also doesn't explicitly cover software patents only, so if Facebook infringes on your hardware patents (which is plausible, since Facebook does hardware related work as well), you still can't sue them.

I think the spirit is that patents are not legitimate. Suing for patent infringement is not considered exercising a legal right, it's considered being a dick and vandalizing someones property. So this is not to be read like a contract between to businesses, but like a truce.

It might as well say "we agree to not destroy your business using dirty tricks if you don't attempt the same".

Of course, opinions on that are divided...

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#156

Post by [deleted] »

cma wrote: post #91
ori_b wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://github.com/facebook/react/blob/master/PATENTS Now where does it say that? The way I read it, so long as you don't sue Facebook, you have a patent grant. If you believe people when they say that their patent portfolios are purely defensive, there is no problem. On the other hand, being the aggressor in a patent lawsuit loses you the patent grant. This seems sane enough to me. The normal state of affairs is com…

> Now where does it say that? [...] If you believe people when they say that their patent portfolios are purely defensive, there is no problem. Where does it say what? Which part of my post are you taking issue with, because I would love to correct anything. What it certainly doesn't say is that Facebook's patent portfolio is non-aggressive. And when, outside of this, has Facebook said that about their entire portfol…

[deleted]

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#157

Post by flamedoge »

DannyBee wrote: post #38
TheAceOfHearts wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering almost every single large tech company is using React, presumably there's not much reason for concern? IANAL. But you're not wrong, preact is a great alternative to react and it comes with a permissive license.

"Considering almost every single large tech company is using React, presumably there's not much reason for concern? IANAL. " Actually, React is banned at a number of them, and i've personally discussed the issue with a number of fairly concerned counsel. So for better or for worse, i don't believe this is as simple as you make it out to be.

It seems like Google is the only one that stands out.

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#160

Post by arethuza »

objclxt wrote: post #72
DannyBee wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Considering almost every single large tech company is using React, presumably there's not much reason for concern? IANAL. " Actually, React is banned at a number of them, and i've personally discussed the issue with a number of fairly concerned counsel. So for better or for worse, i don't believe this is as simple as you make it out to be.

Off the top of my head big users of React include: * Apple (their entire dev docs site is built in it, and they've hosted Bay Area React user meet-ups) * Twitter (for their mobile web) * Microsoft (parts of Visual Studio use it) * Netflix (all over their frontend stack) ...as well as Dropbox, AirBnb, Venmo... So whilst I don't doubt you've discussed it with concerned counsel, there are huge corporations deploying Rea…

The relatively new client framework for SharePoint Online is also based on React.
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