Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license • Hacker News Board

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#61

Post by FRex » Sun, Jul 16, 2017, 3:59 AM UTC

rdtsc wrote: post #26

I was wondering about a similar issue for zstd compression library. It has a similar BSD+Patentsfile thing. There is an issue with a related discussion about it going for more than a year: https://github.com/facebook/zstd/issues/335 Last update is interesting. Someone did a search and looked for any patents FB filed for and couldn't find any in last year. So somehow based on that they decided things are "OK". To quot…

I have no idea but another case is RakNet (another Facebook property, via Occulus). It even uses the older, more controversial wording: https://github.com/facebookarchive/RakNet/blob/master/PATENT...

And I'd find it highly unlikely it contains any patents too. Occulus was bought in March 2014 by Facebook and RakNet was bought in April 2014 by Occulus and there is only a handful of commits on GitHub that don't seem substantial at all and are just maintenance and cleaning up the repo. RakNet operated for years before that so it's unlikely they happen to have had a patent in it at the time of its purchase or they'd be nuked by Facebook before.

Then again, there are/were patents for some bit tricks and Carmack's Reverse so anything is possible.

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#62

Post by ori_b » Sun, Jul 16, 2017, 3:59 AM UTC

cma wrote: post #35

numair wrote: post #18

Finally, people are beginning to realize the insanity of this entire PATENTS file situation! When I first brought up how misguided people were for embracing React and projects with this license, I was downvoted to hell on HN. But really, everyone, THINK ABOUT IT. This is a company that glorifies and celebrates IP theft from others, and lionizes their employees who successfully clone others’ projects. They’ve built th…

Yep, the patent grant is not fully reciprocal. As I understand it: To use React, you give Facebook permission to use any of your software patents (edit: all patents, even on a new jet engine) throughout your whole company. Facebook gives you permission to use only the software patents necessary for React. If your company sues Facebook over an unrelated software patent (edit: as above, any patent), your React license…

https://github.com/facebook/react/blob/master/PATENTS

Now where does it say that? The way I read it, so long as you don't sue Facebook, you have a patent grant. If you believe people when they say that their patent portfolios are purely defensive, there is no problem.

On the other hand, being the aggressor in a patent lawsuit loses you the patent grant. This seems sane enough to me.

The normal state of affairs is completely ambiguous about patents. You get no explicit grant, so if they feel like suing, there's nothing to stop them. Some people claim an implicit grant, but there's no conclusive ruling on it.

I don't particularly care for software patents, but I don't see anything more stupid than the usual lawyerly CYA layered on an attempt to disambiguate the patent situation.

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#63

Post by Lazare » Sun, Jul 16, 2017, 4:01 AM UTC

nsser wrote: post #51

tomelders wrote: post #45

Ok. With the BSD + patent grant Do you have a license to use Facebook's patents? Yes. Do you have a license to use Facebooks patents if Facebook brings a patent case against you? Yes. Do you have a license to use Facebooks patents if you bring a patent case against us? No. If you do not have a patent grant, can you still use React? YES! If you're going to down vote this, please say why. This is how I interpret the li…

>The license granted hereunder will terminate, automatically and without notice, if you (or any of your subsidiaries, corporate affiliates or agents) initiate directly or indirectly, or take a direct financial interest in, any Patent Assertion: (i) against Facebook or any of its subsidiaries or corporate affiliates, (ii) against any party if such Patent ?> > Assertion arises in whole or in part from any software, tec…

> Its not talking about terminating the patent grant, its talking about terminating the license to use.

This is totally incorrect, and has been debunked many time. "The license granted herein" is the patent grant, because that language occurs in the patent grant. The BSD license is totally separate.

This has been stated, repeatedly, by representatives of Facebook and independent lawyers; the language is standard and unambiguous. They even answered it in a FAQ here[0]:

Q: Does termination of the additional patent grant in the Facebook BSD+Patents license cause the copyright license to also terminate?

A: No.

[0]: https://code.facebook.com/pages/850928938376556

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#64

Post by FRex » Sun, Jul 16, 2017, 4:04 AM UTC

nsser wrote: post #51

tomelders wrote: post #45

Ok. With the BSD + patent grant Do you have a license to use Facebook's patents? Yes. Do you have a license to use Facebooks patents if Facebook brings a patent case against you? Yes. Do you have a license to use Facebooks patents if you bring a patent case against us? No. If you do not have a patent grant, can you still use React? YES! If you're going to down vote this, please say why. This is how I interpret the li…

>The license granted hereunder will terminate, automatically and without notice, if you (or any of your subsidiaries, corporate affiliates or agents) initiate directly or indirectly, or take a direct financial interest in, any Patent Assertion: (i) against Facebook or any of its subsidiaries or corporate affiliates, (ii) against any party if such Patent ?> > Assertion arises in whole or in part from any software, tec…

The section you quite is under this one: >Facebook, Inc. ("Facebook") hereby grants to each recipient of the Software ("you") a perpetual, worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive, irrevocable (subject to the termination provision below) license under any Necessary Claims, to make, have made, use, sell, offer to sell, import, and otherwise transfer the Software. For avoidance of doubt, no license is granted under Facebook's rights in any patent claims that are infringed by (i) modifications to the Software made by you or any third party or (ii) the Software in combination with any software or other technology.

Emphasis mine. So it seems to terminate just the patent grant. You can't terminate a BSD license so if you're in like France (no software patents) then you are fine to use React and sue Facebook for patent infringement.

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#65

Post by carussell » Sun, Jul 16, 2017, 4:05 AM UTC

tomelders wrote: post #44

geofft wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From Mark Thomas's comment on this bug: > My reading of that is if you use this code and Facebook infringes a completely unrelated patent that you own, you can't sue them for infringement without giving up this patent license. That is much broader than the language in the ALv2 which is limited to a single work. So it almost certainly doesn't affect personal projects unless you are the sort of person who files for pat…

I think this is misleading. In the event that you bring a patent infringement case against Facebook, you still have a license to use react, but you lose the patent rights that would cover you if you came up with something that infringed on a Facebook patent. Meaning that you now have to fight your case in court without any protection. You're safer with this license and the patent grant, than you are without it. The B…

The MIT license almost definitely protects you from anyone who published under that license and would try to bring a patent suit against you. It enumerates protection against anything a suit might deal with. It just does it without actually using the word "patent" anywhere.

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#66

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Jul 16, 2017, 4:05 AM UTC

carussell wrote: post #53

cma wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, the patent grant is not fully reciprocal. As I understand it: To use React, you give Facebook permission to use any of your software patents (edit: all patents, even on a new jet engine) throughout your whole company. Facebook gives you permission to use only the software patents necessary for React. If your company sues Facebook over an unrelated software patent (edit: as above, any patent), your React license…

> As I understand it: To use React, you give Facebook permission to use any of your software patents throughout your whole company. That is, on its face, absolutely untrue. Nowhere in the React patent terms does it specify that you grant Facebook rights to use your patents--not even to ones related to React. That's something that isn't in the React terms, nor does it seem to show up in any legal analyses published on…

[deleted]

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#67

Post by Lazare » Sun, Jul 16, 2017, 4:05 AM UTC

tomelders wrote: post #45

Ok. With the BSD + patent grant Do you have a license to use Facebook's patents? Yes. Do you have a license to use Facebooks patents if Facebook brings a patent case against you? Yes. Do you have a license to use Facebooks patents if you bring a patent case against us? No. If you do not have a patent grant, can you still use React? YES! If you're going to down vote this, please say why. This is how I interpret the li…

No, you're quite right.

The license to use React is governed by the BSD license, and it's not terminated if you end up suing Facebook over their violation of you VR patents or whatever.

Edit: Downvoted for a factual answer? There's a host of sources confirming by answer as correct, including Facebook's official FAQ on React licensing[0].

Q: "Does termination of the additional patent grant in the Facebook BSD+Patents license cause the copyright license to also terminate?"

A: "No."

That's about as simple as it gets.

[0]: https://code.facebook.com/pages/850928938376556

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#68

Post by khuey » Sun, Jul 16, 2017, 4:05 AM UTC

carussell wrote: post #53

cma wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, the patent grant is not fully reciprocal. As I understand it: To use React, you give Facebook permission to use any of your software patents (edit: all patents, even on a new jet engine) throughout your whole company. Facebook gives you permission to use only the software patents necessary for React. If your company sues Facebook over an unrelated software patent (edit: as above, any patent), your React license…

> As I understand it: To use React, you give Facebook permission to use any of your software patents throughout your whole company. That is, on its face, absolutely untrue. Nowhere in the React patent terms does it specify that you grant Facebook rights to use your patents--not even to ones related to React. That's something that isn't in the React terms, nor does it seem to show up in any legal analyses published on…

It maybe "on its face absolutely untrue" but it is true in practice. If Facebook infringes your patent and you sue them to enforce you lose the rights to use any patents React requires. So while you're not required to grant Facebook rights to use your patents, you are required not to enforce your rights relating to your patents against Facebook.

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#69

Post by csdreamer7 » Sun, Jul 16, 2017, 4:05 AM UTC

cma wrote: post #35

numair wrote: post #18

Finally, people are beginning to realize the insanity of this entire PATENTS file situation! When I first brought up how misguided people were for embracing React and projects with this license, I was downvoted to hell on HN. But really, everyone, THINK ABOUT IT. This is a company that glorifies and celebrates IP theft from others, and lionizes their employees who successfully clone others’ projects. They’ve built th…

Yep, the patent grant is not fully reciprocal. As I understand it: To use React, you give Facebook permission to use any of your software patents (edit: all patents, even on a new jet engine) throughout your whole company. Facebook gives you permission to use only the software patents necessary for React. If your company sues Facebook over an unrelated software patent (edit: as above, any patent), your React license…

> To use React, you give Facebook permission to use any of your software patents throughout your whole company. Facebook gives you permission to use only the software patents necessary for React.

W̶o̶u̶l̶d̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶p̶l̶e̶a̶s̶e̶ ̶q̶u̶o̶t̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶e̶x̶a̶c̶t̶ ̶t̶e̶x̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶g̶i̶v̶e̶s̶ ̶F̶a̶c̶e̶b̶o̶o̶k̶ ̶a̶n̶y̶ ̶r̶i̶g̶h̶t̶s̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶u̶s̶e̶r̶'̶s̶ ̶p̶a̶t̶e̶n̶t̶s̶.̶ ̶A̶s̶ ̶f̶a̶r̶ ̶a̶s̶ ̶I̶ ̶c̶a̶n̶ ̶s̶e̶e̶ ̶o̶n̶l̶y̶ ̶F̶a̶c̶e̶b̶o̶o̶k̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶a̶c̶t̶u̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ ̶g̶r̶a̶n̶t̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶p̶a̶t̶e̶n̶t̶ ̶r̶i̶g̶h̶t̶s̶.̶ ̶Y̶o̶u̶ ̶l̶o̶s̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶p̶a̶t̶e̶n̶t̶ ̶r̶i̶g̶h̶t̶s̶ ̶i̶f̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶s̶u̶e̶ ̶F̶a̶c̶e̶b̶o̶o̶k̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶a̶n̶y̶ ̶p̶a̶t̶e̶n̶t̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶i̶n̶v̶o̶l̶v̶e̶ ̶R̶e̶a̶c̶t̶ ̶o̶r̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶s̶u̶e̶ ̶a̶n̶y̶o̶n̶e̶ ̶u̶s̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶R̶e̶a̶c̶t̶.̶

https://github.com/facebook/react/blob/master/PATENTS

edit: nvm, I misread line 16-17. Naturally line 21-26 is mostly useless.

Re: Apache Foundation disallows use of the Facebook “BSD+Patent” license

#70

Post by khuey » Sun, Jul 16, 2017, 4:08 AM UTC

csdreamer7 wrote: post #69

cma wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, the patent grant is not fully reciprocal. As I understand it: To use React, you give Facebook permission to use any of your software patents (edit: all patents, even on a new jet engine) throughout your whole company. Facebook gives you permission to use only the software patents necessary for React. If your company sues Facebook over an unrelated software patent (edit: as above, any patent), your React license…

> To use React, you give Facebook permission to use any of your software patents throughout your whole company. Facebook gives you permission to use only the software patents necessary for React. W̶o̶u̶l̶d̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶p̶l̶e̶a̶s̶e̶ ̶q̶u̶o̶t̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶e̶x̶a̶c̶t̶ ̶t̶e̶x̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶g̶i̶v̶e̶s̶ ̶F̶a̶c̶e̶b̶o̶o̶k̶ ̶a̶n̶y̶ ̶r̶i̶g̶h̶t̶s̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶u̶s̶e̶r̶'̶s̶ ̶p̶a̶t̶e̶n̶t̶s̶.̶ ̶A̶s̶ ̶f̶a̶r̶ ̶a̶s̶ ̶I̶ ̶c̶a̶n̶ ̶s̶e̶e̶ ̶o̶n̶l̶y̶…

No, you lose the patent rights if you sue Facebook for any patents period.

> The license granted hereunder will terminate, automatically and without notice, if you (or any of your subsidiaries, corporate affiliates or agents) initiate directly or indirectly, or take a direct financial interest in, any Patent Assertion: (i) against Facebook or any of its subsidiaries or corporate affiliates

If you have to agree not to enforce any of your patents, that's pretty much equivalent to giving Facebook the rights to use them.