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Brazil to open 860K acres of protected Amazon rainforest to logging, mining, etc

independent.co.uk

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Re: Brazil to open 860K acres of protected Amazon rainforest to logging, mining, etc

#21

Post by andrenth »

microcolonel wrote: post #16
spodek wrote: post #10

What responsibility does a typical reader of HN have? What can a reader do?

Brazil is failing for roughly the same reasons as most of the rest of South America: excesses of state power, which are too attractive for business to pass up. The economy is depressed by excessive policy, the people have bigger problems than the destruction of the Amazon. In addition, because the government owns the woodland, there's basically no reason to replant or maintain, which means that if you want lumber you…

You've been downvoted but your answer is spot-on.

Re: Brazil to open 860K acres of protected Amazon rainforest to logging, mining, etc

#23

Post by curun1r »

the_absurdist wrote: post #3

Take a commercial flight where you have a chance to look down on the rainforest in Brazil or Peru. You'll be absolutely astonished and sickened at how much is already gone.

Taking a commercial flight over Southeast Asia is a very similar experience. Endless acres of once-rain-forrest that's since turned into palm oil plantations. Occasionally you'll see massive fires set by people who are too lazy to clear the land themselves. It's totally depressing. Since seeing that, I've now started reading labels and boycotting any product made with palm oil. Since it's not the healthiest stuff, it's mostly a win-win.

Re: Brazil to open 860K acres of protected Amazon rainforest to logging, mining, etc

#24

Post by autokad »

microcolonel wrote: post #17
noddy1 wrote: post #13

sadly capitalism seems to be an incredibly effective and efficient way to completely destroy the rainforests. there does not seem to be any solution.

Capitalism saved the forests in North America, Brazil has a lot of state power and the corruption that comes with it. If the people of Brazil value the rainforest at all, it is a lower priority than whatever they are dealing with in their day to day life. In North America, there is more forest cover than there was 200 years ago, thanks to private ownership and maintenance of woodlands. Because of how productive these…

I think that is true for wood/ pulp for paper, but agriculture is a big component. In the US, we really didn't have to wipe out forests to make room for agriculture.

also, although unpopular, its easy to bull doze over our forests, do our thing, and let it grow back.

where i grew up every 15~ years tractors and such go through wiping out many of the trees and reshaping the landscape, but it doesnt take very long before you never would know they were there.

that doesn't apply as well in many parts of the Amazon

Re: Brazil to open 860K acres of protected Amazon rainforest to logging, mining, etc

#25

Post by agumonkey »

microcolonel wrote: post #16
spodek wrote: post #10

What responsibility does a typical reader of HN have? What can a reader do?

Brazil is failing for roughly the same reasons as most of the rest of South America: excesses of state power, which are too attractive for business to pass up. The economy is depressed by excessive policy, the people have bigger problems than the destruction of the Amazon. In addition, because the government owns the woodland, there's basically no reason to replant or maintain, which means that if you want lumber you…

I wish someone knowledgeable about forestry could explain why replanting is not done. What are the costs and subtleties, beside political friction I mean. Or maybe it's only political.

Re: Brazil to open 860K acres of protected Amazon rainforest to logging, mining, etc

#26

Post by agumonkey »

senorjazz wrote: post #8
the_absurdist wrote: post #3

Take a commercial flight where you have a chance to look down on the rainforest in Brazil or Peru. You'll be absolutely astonished and sickened at how much is already gone.

The same for Europe, although it was all cut down longer ago. The same of parts of the US. The trees and land are a resource for these countries with vast numbers living in poverty. Telling them they cannot use these resources just isn't going to work. If we non-Amazon countries want them to stop deforestation, we have to dig into our pockets. But we we don't. Ecuador tried it, requesting funds for not drilling for o…

There was some clojure(IIRC) talk on youtube where the speaker took a picture of old english forest. It was random, dense and beautiful, like a painting. Then a picture of post industrialization forest, where trees where replanted aligned to help processing, it felt like a loss.

Re: Brazil to open 860K acres of protected Amazon rainforest to logging, mining, etc

#27

Post by vortico »

maxerickson wrote: post #20
microcolonel wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Capitalism saved the forests in North America, Brazil has a lot of state power and the corruption that comes with it. If the people of Brazil value the rainforest at all, it is a lower priority than whatever they are dealing with in their day to day life. In North America, there is more forest cover than there was 200 years ago, thanks to private ownership and maintenance of woodlands. Because of how productive these…

There's barely any old growth forest left to cut in the US.

I'm not sure why you're downvoted because you're correct. But I suppose microcolonel's point is that capitalism has converted them to private forests for harvest.

I should note that growing forests consume 10-11 times more CO2 than old growth forests, and the US is excellent at keeping growth rates as high as possible or a given tract of land.

Re: Brazil to open 860K acres of protected Amazon rainforest to logging, mining, etc

#28

Post by non-prophet »

agumonkey wrote: post #25
microcolonel wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brazil is failing for roughly the same reasons as most of the rest of South America: excesses of state power, which are too attractive for business to pass up. The economy is depressed by excessive policy, the people have bigger problems than the destruction of the Amazon. In addition, because the government owns the woodland, there's basically no reason to replant or maintain, which means that if you want lumber you…

I wish someone knowledgeable about forestry could explain why replanting is not done. What are the costs and subtleties, beside political friction I mean. Or maybe it's only political.

Replanting is only done when economically viable and future "land use" is for regeneration of the harvested species. This is done is Pacific Northwest of the US for Douglas Fir. Replanting isn't used in US Northern Hardwood production as the stands are cut to retain trees that reproduce and in another 15-30 year period another variable retention harvest is performed [1]. Modern forestry leverages ecological theory such as disturbance regimes to mimic changes and diversify the timber stands for risk management and ecological factors [2].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_retention

[2] https://andrewsforest.oregonstate.edu/sites/default/files/lt...

Re: Brazil to open 860K acres of protected Amazon rainforest to logging, mining, etc

#29

Post by bpodgursky »

agumonkey wrote: post #25
microcolonel wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brazil is failing for roughly the same reasons as most of the rest of South America: excesses of state power, which are too attractive for business to pass up. The economy is depressed by excessive policy, the people have bigger problems than the destruction of the Amazon. In addition, because the government owns the woodland, there's basically no reason to replant or maintain, which means that if you want lumber you…

I wish someone knowledgeable about forestry could explain why replanting is not done. What are the costs and subtleties, beside political friction I mean. Or maybe it's only political.

A lot of the cleared land is used for cattle grazing.

Re: Brazil to open 860K acres of protected Amazon rainforest to logging, mining, etc

#30

Post by barsonme »

agumonkey wrote: post #26
senorjazz wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same for Europe, although it was all cut down longer ago. The same of parts of the US. The trees and land are a resource for these countries with vast numbers living in poverty. Telling them they cannot use these resources just isn't going to work. If we non-Amazon countries want them to stop deforestation, we have to dig into our pockets. But we we don't. Ecuador tried it, requesting funds for not drilling for o…

There was some clojure(IIRC) talk on youtube where the speaker took a picture of old english forest. It was random, dense and beautiful, like a painting. Then a picture of post industrialization forest, where trees where replanted aligned to help processing, it felt like a loss.

I remember my cousin pointing this out to me when we were in Idaho—the new trees are smaller, knottier, and all-around not as 'normal' looking, but they sure grow fast.
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