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Maryam Mirzakhani, first woman and Iranian to win Fields Medal, has died

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Re: Maryam Mirzakhani, first woman and Iranian to win Fields Medal, has died

#101

Post by sixQuarks »

wfunction wrote: post #90
dang wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These rules: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html . Especially the rules regarding civility, politics, and intellectual curiosity, which are the most important ones. Nationalistic flamewar—which you started—is the essence of all that we don't want here, regardless of how well-intentioned you are. Life-and-death questions of national identity are far stronger and more important than the things that gratify…

dang, this is literally the first time I recall ever seeing a mod respond like this, and I've seen some pretty off-topic comments before. The comment was pretty darn civil, we've had political discussions all the time, and you know better than I do that not every well-received comment in HN sparks "intellectual curiosity". Furthermore, for the life of me I don't see the "flamewar" that was started here. It seems more…

I agree

Re: Maryam Mirzakhani, first woman and Iranian to win Fields Medal, has died

#102

Post by dang »

panic wrote: post #82
dang wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Edit: the above comment has been edited to say "I didn't wanted to start this flamewar". Originally it said "I wanted to start this flamewar". Probably this was just a language misfire and that's fine, but since there were objections below I should make clear that my reply was posted prior to the edit, as you can see from the bit that I quoted.) > I wanted to started this flamewar. Because my country is under attack…

At least by my reading, 0xFFC's comment wasn't particularly nationalistic. He or she wasn't putting Iran above other nations or expressing loyalty or devotion to the Iranian state (in fact by calling out "the regime" I'd say it was the opposite of that). I understand wanting to avoid flamewars, but I think you're putting the blame on the wrong person here.

It isn't a question of blaming a person. It's a question of where the flamewar started, and it's clear that it started with the off-topic, generic, nationally-themed comment that began with Iran, went straight to an opposition to Saudi Arabia, etc. I didn't say this was intentional—on the contrary. It would be nice if unintentional fires didn't burn as hot as intentional ones, but the opposite is the case.

The way we moderate threads like this is rooted in many years of experience with the dynamics of internet forums. It was predictable that a comment like that would provoke a flamewar (as indeed we got, leading all the way to the Godwin-lite of 9/11). Commenters here need to learn about this dynamic and be less negligent if they want to keep commenting here—otherwise the site will end up in flames.

If most of you (where by you I mean all of us) look at your reactions closely, you'll notice that in most cases where you dislike a moderation decision, it's because you sympathize with the comment that was moderated. But when we ask someone not to start flamewars or ask them to stop continuing a flamewar, such moderation posts are quite orthogonal to the content of the argument. I can sympathize 100% with the content of a comment and sympathize 100% with its author's feelings and still post exactly the same as if those numbers were 0 rather than 100. (Edit: this is a slight exaggeration, but in a way that's a separate topic.) It's just the nature of the job, and the same would be true for anyone else after they'd done this enough thousands of times.

Re: Maryam Mirzakhani, first woman and Iranian to win Fields Medal, has died

#103

Post by dang »

wfunction wrote: post #90
dang wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These rules: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html . Especially the rules regarding civility, politics, and intellectual curiosity, which are the most important ones. Nationalistic flamewar—which you started—is the essence of all that we don't want here, regardless of how well-intentioned you are. Life-and-death questions of national identity are far stronger and more important than the things that gratify…

dang, this is literally the first time I recall ever seeing a mod respond like this, and I've seen some pretty off-topic comments before. The comment was pretty darn civil, we've had political discussions all the time, and you know better than I do that not every well-received comment in HN sparks "intellectual curiosity". Furthermore, for the life of me I don't see the "flamewar" that was started here. It seems more…

"Threatening an immediate ban" is not accurate. I led with https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14776923. The commenter responded with "I wanted to started this flamewar", which they subsequently edited to say "didn't wanted" (presumably this was a language misfire). Moderation replies can indeed look pretty bad when the comments to which they're replying have been edited to say the opposite of what they originally said!

When I showed up the thread was already full of angry arguments about Hezbollah and 9/11. Perhaps you haven't seen those comments? Some of them are probably flagged by now. I scolded all the users who were doing this and ended up banning the worst couple of offenders, so there shouldn't be any question of favoritism here. And yes, obviously the original comment wasn't nearly as toxic as the ones that followed.

What you guys seem to be missing is that the comment that sparks a flamewar is responsible for what it sparked. It's not as if these dynamics aren't well understood and predictable. The provocation wasn't intentional (that's why I led with saying "I'm sure you meant well"), but it was negligent, and commenters here—all of us—need to learn not to do that. I've had to learn this myself, it took me a long time, and I haven't mastered it yet.

You guys are right about one thing, though: I haven't done a good job of explaining how I intervened in the thread, to judge by how much pushback my comments received. When that happens, I take it as a sign of something wrong in my approach. In this case the reason is that I was running out the door on my way to a workshop, and moderation in haste is never a good idea. Now I'm running back to the same event (late!) so my last half-dozen comments may not be much better, but I hope I've at least given more background explanation.

Re: Maryam Mirzakhani, first woman and Iranian to win Fields Medal, has died

#104

Post by danso »

davidf18 wrote: post #97
danso wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Boy I hope you never get in a position of power where you also have access to history books. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cyclone

Perhaps you enjoy movies with Tom Hanks and Julia Roberts? If so, you might enjoy the movie (and there is a book on which it is based) "Charlie Wilson's War" which is Operation Cyclone. [1] It is very, very entertaining and based on fact. The Soviets were using armored helicopter gunships to slaughter Afghan citizens. Congressman Charlie Wilson worked with the CIA, and with Israel, Egypt, Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia t…

I rely on Hollywood for 2-hour doses of entertainment, not for facts or nuance or historical context from which the real world is best understood and discussed.

Re: Maryam Mirzakhani, first woman and Iranian to win Fields Medal, has died

#105

Post by dang »

bhnmmhmd wrote: post #33

How is it that brilliant, genius people who truly help our world become a better place die young, while people who bring nothing but destruction and war, live for decades?

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14776536 and marked it off-topic.

Re: Maryam Mirzakhani, first woman and Iranian to win Fields Medal, has died

#106

Post by [deleted] »

rezashirazian wrote: post #91
0xFFC wrote: post #6

Iranian here, one point I really want to mention is following despite our theocratic regime, really I have to mention, Iran is not Suadi Arabia or anything like that. Girls and Boys do get the almost exactly same education, they have great opportunity to be a successful scholar in any branch of science they want (yes, It is like USA, your parent demographic will decide which university you most like end up into. But…

I don't think this is the time or place to post something like this, but I feel compelled to respond to it now that you've brought it up. I agree that Iran is a much more liberal society and that its young population is eons ahead of the Saudis. I also understand that it's frustrating to see it bundled in the media with cultures and ideologies that's is not representative of the country. But let's not get ahead of ou…

[deleted]

Re: Maryam Mirzakhani, first woman and Iranian to win Fields Medal, has died

#107

Post by ars »

dang wrote: post #69
dbranes wrote: post #27

It's immensely disappointing that this comment section has has an abundance of comments on iranian socio-political issues, while completely devoid of any discussion on dynamics on moduli spaces.

I agree with you but this tar is so sticky that any trace of it, even one brought up to negate it, will only attract more of the same and start the cycle all over again. Therefore I need to detach this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14776588 and mark it off-topic (as of course I mark my own comments that go into this). You're welcome to post another comment upthread that's on topic and tar-free.

Suggestion: Have threads marked offtopic start "collapsed". People can open them if they wish (and the browser will remember it), but they start closed.

Re: Maryam Mirzakhani, first woman and Iranian to win Fields Medal, has died

#108

Post by danso »

wfunction wrote: post #90
dang wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These rules: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html . Especially the rules regarding civility, politics, and intellectual curiosity, which are the most important ones. Nationalistic flamewar—which you started—is the essence of all that we don't want here, regardless of how well-intentioned you are. Life-and-death questions of national identity are far stronger and more important than the things that gratify…

dang, this is literally the first time I recall ever seeing a mod respond like this, and I've seen some pretty off-topic comments before. The comment was pretty darn civil, we've had political discussions all the time, and you know better than I do that not every well-received comment in HN sparks "intellectual curiosity". Furthermore, for the life of me I don't see the "flamewar" that was started here. It seems more…

From what I would guess, you didn't see a flamewar because off-topic comments have been heavily downvoted and downmodded, pre-empting that situation. I do agree dang's lengthy responses here are unusual -- maybe Saturdays allow for more time to deliberate. But the mod action here seems consistent to what's applied on a regular basis on HN. The difference is that we're getting an explanation for actions we likely take for granted on an average day.

Re: Maryam Mirzakhani, first woman and Iranian to win Fields Medal, has died

#109

Post by dang »

ars wrote: post #107
dang wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you but this tar is so sticky that any trace of it, even one brought up to negate it, will only attract more of the same and start the cycle all over again. Therefore I need to detach this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14776588 and mark it off-topic (as of course I mark my own comments that go into this). You're welcome to post another comment upthread that's on topic and tar-free.

Suggestion: Have threads marked offtopic start "collapsed". People can open them if they wish (and the browser will remember it), but they start closed.

This (edit: or something like it) is on the list.
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