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I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

nobelprize.org

171–180 of 234 posts

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#171
post #74

As an aside, even though the Norwegian government has nothing to do with the prize, China quickly ended lots of relations with Norway, losing Norwegian companies billions. Now, the government is too afraid to publicly speak about Liu, to not sour what they have spent years trying to fix. Weak.

The weakness is democracy. The Norwegian governing party - whoever it is - now knows that China's default position to perceived outside interference is disproportionate economic punishment, leading to pressure on the living standards of the voters they depend on. Autocratic states have discovered a critical weakness in the representative democracy and there's little we can currently do about it

Actually, that's "not a bug it's a feature (#wontfix)" of democracy. But also democracy's weakness.

Democracies can't take deterministic stances for the long term good of their people and because any clear deterministic stance about the future can be ridiculed and criticised, and thus a democracy can't execute an effective long term plan for rapid progress and development, and naturally wallows in stagnation. The people are effectively distracted and their frustrations channelled into the cathartic release of futile voting, while they are seduced by the delusion that they have actual power, when democracy is simply an effective means for social control to maintain a status quo. Democracies are not meant to take deterministic stances, to do so would upset the status quo and social control equilibrium that democratic theatre protects through its elaborate stage craft of "universal suffrage".

A technocratic-governed advanced society like China, can afford to make long term bets and bold moves for the good of its people, and thus in my view better deserves the mantle of caring for its citizens wellbeing.

Western states and their citizens sooth themselves with the fake payoff of pretending they are "morally superior" to countries like China by chanting denouncements of "human rights", which simply better distracts these Westerners from how their own governing system effectively short-changes them and swaps development growth and prosperity, for "harmony" -- but how harmonious is that currently? Probably the only reason people in Western "liberal democracies" don't revolt is because they are given the effective catharsis of "self determination" by voting every couple of years: a way to run around in the park, let off steam, cool off their hot heads. Democratic theatre is meant to enchant, distract and beguile the audience, so people obsess over basically meaningless differences, exaggerated only for dramatic effect to keep the audience spellbound. An exercise in collective suspension of belief. While society and economies stagnate.

China can better care for its citizens because it can relentlessly pursue long term benefits and greater goods over short term gains, status quo and special interests. 5 year plans by the ruling elites have yielded seventy years of incredible economic growth. Westerns will at this point console themselves at their lackluster performance in comparison by pretending that "China is bad" because of the blood that was shed to bring the current peace and stability.

Has it ever occurred to you that as much as China maybe feigns affront at your human rights criticisms, perhaps it also conceals a chuckle and is glad you distract yourselves thus with such concerns, while their economic grows and yours stagnates, while your politicians bicker and theirs act?

Westerners will at this point console themselves that "China is bad" by making comments about the blood that was shed by Mao, and so on...

A very effective defensive strategy at learning from the competition and insulation from introspection is to cocoon yourselves inside a shell of pretend "moral superiority" and pretending those that exceed you are actually less than you...don't any of you begin to feel that the brainwashing and propaganda to sustain such a state of non-introspection is very skillful?

China skilfully deploys propaganda and mass deception as well, but to what end? To the end of the benefit of the people, economic growth, and civil harmony. What better way to deliver on their responsibility to their people than take care of them? Are your governments delivering on their responsibilities to you?

Liu Xiaobo was a moron, elevated beyond his merit by a bitter and myopic award committee, bent on rewarding anything that would perpetuate a fading dream of Western supremacy -- cue the award to an internal critic of China. He advocated the Westernization of China. China will do better to continue inventing its own system rather than mimicking a Western one. Of course ignorant Westerners support such a dissident wholesale, but they only have to look at the relative consequences of a Chinese model vs a Western model to see the results: growth and stability vs stagnation and division. He's not a patriot, he's someone who hates China and the qualities that made it great: its culture, its people, its single party rule. He has no love for China, only hate, despite what the lies in SCMP say. He's a political actor, and not soon enough gone, for the good of China.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#172
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

he was. and in a later interview he clarified he was not joking, nor metaphorically speaking. he said he literally wanted China to be colonised for 300 years. the best explanation I could think of, is that he was young and tried to make an extraordinary statement to express his view. we all did this.

I would love to see that interview! Link? That pretty much solves it and leaves no room for doubt. > the best explanation I could think of, is that he was young and tried to make an extraordinary statement to express his view. we all did this. That is a very charitable interpretation. It's a difficult thing to view view someone's contentious statements through a kind lens like that. I don't mean to lay it on thick bu…

sorry I couldn't find it any more b/c suddenly articles about him is all over the internet and google doesn't help.

since 1898, China has been through a process longer than a century trying to figure out why we lagged behind. many had sharply criticised Chinese history, political system/heritages, culture, language, writing system, geological layout, even Chinese as a race. amongst them, Liu's view was actually not that extreme, nor innovative. It's fascinating to read through this slice of history, laughing at some remarks made by great figures, while appreciate their frustration as flawed human beings constrained by their times/knowledge/visions/environments.

as an entrepreneur, I think Liu's view is probably wrong and his political campaign has no clear target market. but he deserved a longer and healthy life.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#173
post #74

As an aside, even though the Norwegian government has nothing to do with the prize, China quickly ended lots of relations with Norway, losing Norwegian companies billions. Now, the government is too afraid to publicly speak about Liu, to not sour what they have spent years trying to fix. Weak.

> Now, the government is too afraid to publicly speak about Liu As it should be. Speaking up would only draw more attention to Norway's unscrupulous actions in conflicted and autocratic regions, especially considering its public image of neutrality, diplomacy, non-interference, and promoting progressive values. Denmark and Sweden are also in this as well - they say they promote human rights while exporting billions o…

Sources?

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The weakness is democracy. The Norwegian governing party - whoever it is - now knows that China's default position to perceived outside interference is disproportionate economic punishment, leading to pressure on the living standards of the voters they depend on. Autocratic states have discovered a critical weakness in the representative democracy and there's little we can currently do about it

Actually, that's "not a bug it's a feature (#wontfix)" of democracy. But also democracy's weakness. Democracies can't take deterministic stances for the long term good of their people and because any clear deterministic stance about the future can be ridiculed and criticised, and thus a democracy can't execute an effective long term plan for rapid progress and development, and naturally wallows in stagnation. The peo…

your assumption that anyone/organization/party might have superior knowledge to lay out a perfect plan (70 years!), is not true. without this assumption, your argument becomes invalid.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The weakness is democracy. The Norwegian governing party - whoever it is - now knows that China's default position to perceived outside interference is disproportionate economic punishment, leading to pressure on the living standards of the voters they depend on. Autocratic states have discovered a critical weakness in the representative democracy and there's little we can currently do about it

Actually, that's "not a bug it's a feature (#wontfix)" of democracy. But also democracy's weakness. Democracies can't take deterministic stances for the long term good of their people and because any clear deterministic stance about the future can be ridiculed and criticised, and thus a democracy can't execute an effective long term plan for rapid progress and development, and naturally wallows in stagnation. The peo…

I can understand some of your critiques of democracy and its current Western implementation.

What makes me wonder is the assumption that the Chinese government acts for well-being of Chinese people in general, and not the prosperity of the relatively narrow upper ruling layer. It's not based on any evidence; if anything, Chinese history is full of examples of the contrary.

To play an honest neo-reactionary, you should at least assume that an autocratic ruler, collective or personal, cares about its own well-being, but it somehow trickles down to non-ruling layes, and does so more effectively that what a democracy would provide.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#176
post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would love to see that interview! Link? That pretty much solves it and leaves no room for doubt. > the best explanation I could think of, is that he was young and tried to make an extraordinary statement to express his view. we all did this. That is a very charitable interpretation. It's a difficult thing to view view someone's contentious statements through a kind lens like that. I don't mean to lay it on thick bu…

sorry I couldn't find it any more b/c suddenly articles about him is all over the internet and google doesn't help. since 1898, China has been through a process longer than a century trying to figure out why we lagged behind. many had sharply criticised Chinese history, political system/heritages, culture, language, writing system, geological layout, even Chinese as a race. amongst them, Liu's view was actually not t…

Oh well, c'est la vie :) Thanks for trying.

You make a good point about famous figures remarks. It's important to keep in mind the kind of absurdity we've seen from prominent people in the past when we hear something shocking from the public figures of our own time. The people of the past are flawed, and the people of the present are flawed.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Norwegian here! I'd like to take the opportunity to say that the feeling at the time was that we got left out in the storm by ourselves by other western countries once the Chinese sanctions came on. In the direct aftermath everyone else just kinda looked the other way, and in the long run there is no way a tiny country like us can withstand that pressure over time.

Do you and your countrymen ever doubt whether the potential political toxicity of the prize is worth it for Norway to maintain sole administration? Has there ever been talk of transferring it to something like a multi-country consortium under the U.N.?

I like this plan, but I'd imagine in Alfred Nobel's will there is something requiring that the peace prize be awarded only in Norway.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now, the government is too afraid to publicly speak about Liu As it should be. Speaking up would only draw more attention to Norway's unscrupulous actions in conflicted and autocratic regions, especially considering its public image of neutrality, diplomacy, non-interference, and promoting progressive values. Denmark and Sweden are also in this as well - they say they promote human rights while exporting billions o…

Sources?

I found this link: https://www.earthrights.org/campaigns/norway-complicit-human... but haven't read it fully.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#179
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you agree with his jail sentence and permanent house arrest?

What are you trying to say? Is this a question related to my last view or trying to question me?! I cannot figure your point really.

It's a very simple question, you know.

Love it when topics on China or India pop up. You get all the same subservient pundits posting, but anecdotally the Chinese bots have spelling on their side.

Re: I Have No Enemies: My Final Statement (2009)

#180
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, that's "not a bug it's a feature (#wontfix)" of democracy. But also democracy's weakness. Democracies can't take deterministic stances for the long term good of their people and because any clear deterministic stance about the future can be ridiculed and criticised, and thus a democracy can't execute an effective long term plan for rapid progress and development, and naturally wallows in stagnation. The peo…

your assumption that anyone/organization/party might have superior knowledge to lay out a perfect plan (70 years!), is not true. without this assumption, your argument becomes invalid.

not assuming anything. just looking at the results. from poverty to riches in 70 years, civil harmony and > 1bn people, clearly the proof the party doesn't know what they're doing.

the truth is the PRC is ruled by technocratic geniuses. Even their critics admit as much. most of them are engineers. you SV Cali republic folks ought to be eyeing this as a model of development + progress can be done right at scale.

but i get there's years of propaganda to see through to get to that point.

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