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Stop complaining and pay programmers more

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121–130 of 290 posts

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#121
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How do you incentivize the good ones to work for you? If you have a solution to that problem, I suspect you'll be a very much in-demand person. Bonuses, perks, and congrats on jobs well-done. If I spend 40 hours between Dec 31 and Jan 2 writing up a new wireless barcoding system because the powers that be decided at the last minute to begin the new year with a different process for warehousing, I better get a damn…

As a programmer bonus and perks are definitely incentives, but a nice steady "I love your work" kind of vibe is a great way to keep me in my job.

> "I love your work"

Nothing says "I love your work" more truthfully than a bonus or a raise.

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#122
Managers assume that because one good programmer will do the job for $100k that all good programmers will. Many here point out that good programmers will generally find a job that challenges them, and that pays them enough to live. They then conclude that if $100k fills one seat, then $100k is the right price.

This is totally wrong, and the key is "enough to live". I love programming as much as I did when I was 10. My expenses, however, are now somewhat higher than when I was 10. I have a wife, two kids, will not live in a small house, have very expensive car insurance, and I road-race big cars, hard on tires. If you want to hire me, it will cost a lot more than $100k.

Then there is the issue of mobility. Programmers tend to be loyal. They tend to be realists. If I make X here, and I know here to be fun, why would I risk moving for 1.1X, or even 1.5X?

What you have a reversible reaction in equilibrium. You want to bind seats to programmers. Programmers will bind to a seat for a while. But not all programmers will bind for the same price. Sure you can fill a seat for $100k. You might be able to fill a seat for $20k - but you'll have to wait a loooong time. If you want to fill all your seats, you're going to have to appeal to the largest possible pool of good programmers, and some of us need more money.

Even if you ignore the fact that those of us with higher expenses have more experience, the simple math of the equilibrium reaction tells you that if you want to fill more seats, you have to have a bigger pool. Even if we are of no more value than the 20 year old, the question is: Are 5 programmers better than 4 for your business?

Whether or not that makes economic sense for your business is up to you.

So yes RethinkDB, $125k for an Engineer III will get you some hires, but are you going to insist that this is the right price, even if it means that you have empty seats? What is your opportunity cost? It may be the right decision. But it may not.

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#123

Managers assume that because one good programmer will do the job for $100k that all good programmers will. Many here point out that good programmers will generally find a job that challenges them, and that pays them enough to live. They then conclude that if $100k fills one seat, then $100k is the right price. This is totally wrong, and the key is "enough to live". I love programming as much as I did when I was 10. M…

They have $1.2 million dollars, they can't pay more. $125K is a huge pre series-a salary.

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#124
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and I don't think everything a doctor or lawyer does is then thoroughly tested. And if you fail to meet the high barriers to entry for doctors and lawyers, the likelihood that you'll make disastrous errors is pretty high.

Is it? Or is it something we just believe? Doctors used to think that having paramedics would result in disaster. I think the vast majority of times one needs to use the services of a doctor could be handled by someone with far less training and certification.

[deleted]

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#125
post #12
post #5

You have to understand: there's more to hiring programmers than paying lots of money. If that were the case, we wouldn't have had a dot-com bust and software companies would be dominated by MBAs. That's the hard part of hiring programmers. How do you incentivize the good ones to work for you? If you have a solution to that problem, I suspect you'll be a very much in-demand person.

> How do you incentivize the good ones to work for you? If you have a solution to that problem, I suspect you'll be a very much in-demand person. Bonuses, perks, and congrats on jobs well-done. If I spend 40 hours between Dec 31 and Jan 2 writing up a new wireless barcoding system because the powers that be decided at the last minute to begin the new year with a different process for warehousing, I better get a damn…

Bonuses, perks, and congrats on jobs well-done.

Maybe... certainly respect is needed but...

What about a sane work environment??

What about a system which is actually aiming to produce good software??

What about not structuring your system for 80 hours weeks from the get-go???

I don't know how many vile, worthless hoops I've had to jump through in previous job searches.

Still, I've also interviewed for places that made a virtue of their good process to the point of expected people to work for less (I think SAS was their model). That won't fly either because it's not really respect either.

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#126

Managers assume that because one good programmer will do the job for $100k that all good programmers will. Many here point out that good programmers will generally find a job that challenges them, and that pays them enough to live. They then conclude that if $100k fills one seat, then $100k is the right price. This is totally wrong, and the key is "enough to live". I love programming as much as I did when I was 10. M…

They have $1.2 million dollars, they can't pay more. $125K is a huge pre series-a salary.

They're also offering stock of course, and it actually looks interesting :-) Plus they may not be so time sensitive: 4 programmers for 10 months vs 5 programmers for 8 months (yes I know). But if its $125k vs $150k will that $25k break the bank? Maybe. Maybe not.

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#127
post #81
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

Here's this little secret how the dentist association controls the number of dentists licensed each year - they raise and lower the difficulty of the licensing exams each year. Guess who wrote the exams? The existing dentists, who have incentive to restrict the number of new dentists. They can raise the difficulty with frivolous questions that don't impact the dental competency but weed out a number of qualified cand…

I think the fact that a group controls its membership qualifications is not really a problem as long as other groups can compete with them to address the same needs. And without special treatment from the government. A level playing field, not subsidies for one model at the expense of other models.

Realtors control their numbers and qualifications too. But you can still be a real estate agent without being a Realtor. Having and protecting a brand is ok. Getting government to put some group in charge of all people addressing a need will raise prices.

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#128
post #88
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, you'll have to offer them equivalent worth to what they're making. I left a high-paying job at a company that didn't appreciate its geeks to go to a lower-paying job whose entire staff (except for three project managers and the accountant) were geeks. The founder started the company doing websites in Perl in the 90's, and grew it into a small-scale hosting/app dev company. It's still private, it's still owned b…

really, keep your "perks" - it is like giving a gift card. Just give me the cash and I will buy what I want.

Exactly. Perks are a method of control really, to make the employee dependent on the company for their lifestyle, knowing it will be hard to negotiate their salary up to an equivalent level at another company. Reminds me of one company some friends of mine worked for, fantastic perks (like the entire company being flown to NYC for a movie premiere) but the salaries were awful, none of them could have afforded that trip themselves.

My attitude is, look, I have friends, I have a life, I have things I want to do, I don't need the company to fill in these gaps. The only "rewards" I want are cash and time to spend it.

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#129

The best way to hire good programmers is by tapping into the network of the good programmers you already have. Everyone with a few years of experience has a short list of developers they'd like to work with again. EDIT: sponsoring hackathons may be another way of finding great programmers. And don't forget the colleges in your area: if you have an interesting piece of technology you can show off, you can present a ta…

Yes, and they all, without exception, have well paid, highly rewarding jobs. What would make them risk leaving that job?

Re: Stop complaining and pay programmers more

#130
I think you can hire good programmers for cheap, but the tricky part is retaining them. Programmers can be hired for relatively low-wages, but then they should raises every few months. Turnover can be really expensive, and it often isn't factored in. Further, maintenance work may not help the programmers develop marketable skills, so they strong incentive to quit.
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