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Concentration camps reveal the nature of the modern state

aeon.co

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Re: Concentration camps reveal the nature of the modern state

#31
post #7

What concentration camps reveal is that modern people are squeamish about killing. Consider the Mongol empire. While the Mongol empire had some things in common with a modern state, squeamishness about killing was not one of them. There are cases where they decided a city needed to be destroyed and they took great pains to make sure that destruction was total. Every man, woman, and child they could find was put to th…

Historically, "genocide" was extremely rare and it was definitely not driven by a lack of "squeamishness." It was then, as it is now, a political calculation.

Further, anybody who really understands exactly what the United States did to Japan during WW2 would be very, very hard pressed to declare "modern people are squeemish about killing."

(Seriously, this is almost exactly backwards. Nothing the Mongols ever did could even approach the destruction of modern conflicts.)

> Concentration camps are only necessary now because most people won't stand for such atrocities, and states therefore feel compelled to carry them out in relative secrecy.

Again, this is backwards. Concentration camps are the most basic kind of state terrorism. The goal of modern camps is always to inspire fear in a population in an economically efficient manner. The same is true of historical genocides and slavery. They were tools of terror. What previous governments lacked but the modern state possesses in abundance is the ability to track, contain, and feed large populations. Once you can do this it makes much more economic sense to terrorise your enemy's population than it does to completely annihilate the city (and destroy lots of valuable infrastructure [1]) or enslave the population (slaves are often not very productive from an economic perspective). Hence concentration camps.

The article is probably a bit off too. There are even more sophisticated forms of state terrorism available today which largely obsolete concentration camps. Mass surveillance (once you can convince the population they are always being watched most will self-regulate), mass debt (if you really want to control a man give him a 30 year mortgage, to control a country give them insfrastructure loans) and mass institutionalization (force most people into prison or universities). You are far more likely to see modern statesmen advocating for more surveillance powers and "tougher" laws or economic fines/seizures against whoever happens to be enemy.

[1] To get down to it, the two basic reasons modern states don't annihilate population centers is (a) nuclear weapons which blow out all cost/benefits calculations (b) global trade has produced highly interconnected goods and services networks. Note that (a) and (b) reinforce one another.

Re: Concentration camps reveal the nature of the modern state

#33
[...] a more analytically fruitful approach is to examine the impact of the First World War. Here, for the first time in modern Europe, we see [...] the willingness of the state to incarcerate huge numbers of civilians considered threatening.

This statement was the one I found most intriguing in the entire article, but then the author did not expand on it. Maybe he does so in his book. It was strange to me to consider that this state of the world has not always been the norm.

When I looked into it, I found conflicting sources of information. Anyone with knowledge on the subject feel like expanding on this?

Re: Concentration camps reveal the nature of the modern state

#34
We obviously haven't seen the last of them when the US has a network of prisons that holds almost 2.5 million people, many of them concentrated for rather obvious racial reasons. Just because they are built of brick and steel does not change their basic tenet. Nor does the use of prisons for such purposes or the fact that there are actual criminals in prisons in addition to the concentrated populations.

Re: Concentration camps reveal the nature of the modern state

#35
Stephan Zweig describes this new sense of nationalism as state policy after WWI in the 'World of Yesterday'; actually before the great world one could travel without passports or identification papers at all - that serves him as the detail that serves to explain the big thing.

https://ia801609.us.archive.org/21/items/in.ernet.dli.2015.1...

"Nationalism emerged to agitate the world only after the war, and the first visible phenomenon which this intellectual epidemic of our century brought about was xenophobia : morbid dislike of the foreigner, or at least fear of the foreigner. The world was on the defensive against strangers, everywhere they got short shrift. The humiliations which once had been devised with criminals alone in mind now were imposed upon the traveller, before and during every journey. There had to be photographs from right and left, in profile and full face, one’s hair had to be cropped sufficiently to make the ears visible; fingerprints were taken, at first only the thumb but later all ten fingers ; furthermore, certificates of health, of vaccination, police certificates of good standing, had to be shown ; letters of recommendation were required, invitations to visit a country had to be procured ; they asked for the addresses of relatives, for moral and financial guarantees, questionnaires, and forms in triplicate and quadruplicate needed to be filled out, and if only one of this sheaf of papers was missing one was lost.

Petty details, one thinks. And at the first glance it may seem petty in me even to mention them. But our generation has foolishly wasted irretrievable, valuable time on those senseless pettinesses. If I reckon up the many forms I have filled out during these years, declarations on every trip, tax declarations, foreign exchange certificates, border passes, entrance permits, departure permits, registrations on coming and on going ; the many hours I have spent in anterooms of consulates and officials, the many inspectors, friendly and unfriendly, bored and overworked, before whom I have sat, the many examinations and interrogations at frontiers I have been through, then I feel keenly how much human dignity has been lost in this century which, in our youth, we had credulously dreamed of as one of freedom, as of the federation of the world. The loss in creative work, in thought, as a result of those spirit-crushing procedures is incalculable. Have not many of us spent more time studying official rules and regulations than works of the intellect ! The first excursion in a foreign country was no longer to a museum or to a world-renowned view, but to a consulate, to a police office, to get a “permit" When those of us who had once conversed about Baudelaire’s poetry and spiritedly discussed intellectual problems met together, we would catch ourselves talking about affidavits and permits and whether one should apply for an immigration visa or a tourist visa ; acquaintance with a stenographer in a consulate who could cut down one’s waiting- time was more significant to one’s existence than friendship with a Toscanini or a Rolland. Human beings were made to feel that they were objects and not subjects, that nothing was their right but everything merely a favour by official grace. They were codified, registered, numbered, stamped and even today I, as a case-hardened creature of an age of freedom and a citizen of the world-republic of my dreams, count every impression of a rubber-stamp in my passport a stigma, every one of those hearings and searches a humiliation. They are petty trifles, always merely trifles, I am well aware, trifles in a day when human values sink more rapidly than those of currencies. But only if one notes such insignificant symptoms will a later age be able to make a proper clinical record of the mental state and mental disturbances with which our world was seized between the two World Wars.

Re: Concentration camps reveal the nature of the modern state

#36
post #28
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you're wrong about modern squeamishness, but I think it goes further than that. The purpose of concentration camps is to not kill people. Methodical killing of any type at scale is very rare in the modern world. It's even rarer for it to to be conducted through camps; to my knowledge, only the Nazis ever did it (and their allies, the Croatian fascist Ustaše regime). Most mass killing simply consists of…

Cambodian genocide (1975 - 79) had insanely high fatality rates at it's camps which where mostly there to torture people before death. ~25 percent of the total Cambodian population died. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambodian_genocide What separated the Nazi mass killings was mostly the massive population they could pull from. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German-occupied_Europe

> ~25 percent of the total Cambodian population died.

But not from concentration camps.

Re: Concentration camps reveal the nature of the modern state

#37
post #21
post #7

What concentration camps reveal is that modern people are squeamish about killing. Consider the Mongol empire. While the Mongol empire had some things in common with a modern state, squeamishness about killing was not one of them. There are cases where they decided a city needed to be destroyed and they took great pains to make sure that destruction was total. Every man, woman, and child they could find was put to th…

I don't think you're wrong about modern squeamishness, but I think it goes further than that. The purpose of concentration camps is to not kill people. Methodical killing of any type at scale is very rare in the modern world. It's even rarer for it to to be conducted through camps; to my knowledge, only the Nazis ever did it (and their allies, the Croatian fascist Ustaše regime). Most mass killing simply consists of…

> The purpose of concentration camps is to not kill people.

I agree with this even more than you do. If my understanding of history is correct, the Nazis, whom you single out as an exception, weren't so from the beginning. This:

> Most mass killing simply consists of taking groups of people somewhere remote and shooting them.

was what they did with their 'undesireables' for a long time, too; and, as you point out:

> Concentration camps are what you do when you don't want to do that and are basically a cheap form of prison.

I think that they originally intended their concentration camps as a marshalling point for future deportation, and (later?) a source of slave labour. It was only at the Wannsee Conference in 1942, I think, that they decided to turn some concentration camps into extermination camps. (Indeed, one could make the point that your statement is true by definition; a camp intended for killing ceases to be, or just to be, a concentration camp. However, probably this sort of semantic quibble is not what you meant.)

Re: Concentration camps reveal the nature of the modern state

#38
post #7

What concentration camps reveal is that modern people are squeamish about killing. Consider the Mongol empire. While the Mongol empire had some things in common with a modern state, squeamishness about killing was not one of them. There are cases where they decided a city needed to be destroyed and they took great pains to make sure that destruction was total. Every man, woman, and child they could find was put to th…

> Consider the Mongol empire. While the Mongol empire had some things in common with a modern state, squeamishness about killing was not one of them. The mongols were just as "squeamish" about killing as any other empire - british, spanish, american, etc. Hell, by any measure, the mongols were a far less "brutal" empire than the british, spanish, american. > There are cases where they decided a city needed to be dest…

Sure humans haven't evolved, but the parent poster didn't say that. Society has evolved. We still make desperate actions during wartime, meanwhile during peacetime we are even outraged these days when death row prisoners have their executions moved forward.

Re: Concentration camps reveal the nature of the modern state

#39
post #37
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you're wrong about modern squeamishness, but I think it goes further than that. The purpose of concentration camps is to not kill people. Methodical killing of any type at scale is very rare in the modern world. It's even rarer for it to to be conducted through camps; to my knowledge, only the Nazis ever did it (and their allies, the Croatian fascist Ustaše regime). Most mass killing simply consists of…

> The purpose of concentration camps is to not kill people. I agree with this even more than you do. If my understanding of history is correct, the Nazis, whom you single out as an exception, weren't so from the beginning. This: > Most mass killing simply consists of taking groups of people somewhere remote and shooting them. was what they did with their 'undesireables' for a long time, too; and, as you point out: >…

Your history is not quite correct, although the timeline of how they eased themselves into it makes for insightful reading. While the Wannsee Conference made it official, the "final solution" grew organically out of the pre-existing "Action T4" "euthanasia" program - the first mass gassings were actually in October 1939. The systematic extermination of Jews began in June 1941 during the invasion of the Soviet Union, beginning with Jews in political positions but rapidly expanding to include all male Jews, then all Jews. By November 1941, three months before the conference, the construction of Bełżec (conceived from the start as a dedicated extermination camp) had already begun.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_VII https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Be%C5%82%C5%BCec_extermination...

Re: Concentration camps reveal the nature of the modern state

#40
post #39
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The purpose of concentration camps is to not kill people. I agree with this even more than you do. If my understanding of history is correct, the Nazis, whom you single out as an exception, weren't so from the beginning. This: > Most mass killing simply consists of taking groups of people somewhere remote and shooting them. was what they did with their 'undesireables' for a long time, too; and, as you point out: >…

Your history is not quite correct, although the timeline of how they eased themselves into it makes for insightful reading. While the Wannsee Conference made it official, the "final solution" grew organically out of the pre-existing "Action T4" "euthanasia" program - the first mass gassings were actually in October 1939. The systematic extermination of Jews began in June 1941 during the invasion of the Soviet Union,…

Thank you for the background. Please forgive my asking for further clarification; I'm not arguing, just trying to come to an accurate understanding. The linked article says:

> [the Nazi concentration camps] became part of the genocide of the Jews only late in the war; for most of the period of the Third Reich, the camp system was separate from the ‘war against the Jews’ and the extermination camps were not part of the regular concentration camp system.

Is this a wrong statement that conflicts with what you are saying, or a right statement, carefully worded (initially, extermination camps were separate from concentration camps), that I overgeneralised to a wrong conclusion (initially, there were no extermination camps for Jews)?

As horrifying as it is, I can't seem to read enough on the fascinating but ghoulish history of this period. The linked article cites Wachsmann's KL, which I have not yet read. Do you think that is a good reference, and/or do you know of any (other) good reference?

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