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California Supreme Court Moves to Make Bar Exam Easier to Pass

nytimes.com

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Re: California Supreme Court Moves to Make Bar Exam Easier to Pass

#11
> The move follows a sometimes furious debate in California legal circles over whether the state’s passing score, or “cut score” — 144 — was unrealistic.

If the passing score were unrealistic, there would be no lawyers in CA. Since there are lawyers in CA, the passing score is both realistic and achievable.

I'm not an attorney in CA, but I imagine the score measures both intelligence and knowledge in the field. Why shouldn't a prospective attorney be required to score 100% on knowledge? That seems reasonable to me, at least for the area of law they will practice.

Re: California Supreme Court Moves to Make Bar Exam Easier to Pass

#12
Coming from a lawyer who passed Illinois in 2004 and took California's bar in 2014, I can say that for my CA test, the passage rate for attorneys barred in other states was around 20% (if I recall). California has differences in its laws that make it naturally harder than the "collective norm." Further, part of that low passage rate is because of two factors: 1) most attorneys already barred work full time, thus study time constraints; 2) what you're asked on the bar exam has very little connection to the actual practice of law. Lots of theory and hand-wringing, but neither law school nor the bar exam truly prepare you for HOW to be a lawyer.

Glad I passed both on the first try. Won't ever do it again.

Re: California Supreme Court Moves to Make Bar Exam Easier to Pass

#13
post #9
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CA is significantly lower re % people who pass than other states http://www.ncbex.org/pdfviewer/?file=%2Fdmsdocument%2F205

because https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14772630

Hmm, maybe. How many people take the bar exam from non-accredited institutions? My understanding it was a much lower percentage, and if that's the case then it wouldn't weigh very much on the overall passage rate.

Re: California Supreme Court Moves to Make Bar Exam Easier to Pass

#14
Bar passage rates are falling because law schools have become increasingly theoretical. Many law professors have never had actual clients who pay them for legal work, or have worked as lawyers in the real world for less than five years. These profs are producing interesting academic scholarship but they are increasingly isolated from the legal profession. Law school classes, perhaps as result, tend not to teach what bar exams test: the elements of crimes and torts, how many witnesses are required for a will to be valid, the elements of a valid contact, and so on. These are exactly the things that Californians need their lawyers to know. If too many people are failing the bar exam, the problem isn't the exam, but the prep.

Re: California Supreme Court Moves to Make Bar Exam Easier to Pass

#15

Bar passage rates are falling because law schools have become increasingly theoretical. Many law professors have never had actual clients who pay them for legal work, or have worked as lawyers in the real world for less than five years. These profs are producing interesting academic scholarship but they are increasingly isolated from the legal profession. Law school classes, perhaps as result, tend not to teach what…

[deleted]

Re: California Supreme Court Moves to Make Bar Exam Easier to Pass

#16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

California's bar exam is notoriously difficult to pass compared to other states. Whether that nets fewer stupid lawyers here than other states, maybe so, but I know of a few very intelligent people who did not pass the CA exam.

I seem to recall that most states require you not only to pass their bar exam, but also to have graduated from a recognized law school. California, by contrast, only requires you to pass the exam, but it's much harder than most, since they can't rely on the law school for a certain amount of sanity checking.

You can't just sign up for the bar exam in California. Your options in decreasing popularity are...

* Graduate from an ABA-accredited law school.

* Graduate from a California accredited law school.

* Graduate from an unaccredited law school, after taking the baby bar after your first year.

* Finish a four year legal apprenticeship program, taking the baby bar after your first year.

Unless you've done one of those things, you cannot sit for the bar exam in California.

Re: California Supreme Court Moves to Make Bar Exam Easier to Pass

#17
Because the schools are passing/producing more bad grads than ever, probably, regardless of total enrollment numbers. There are two rough ways to take this:

A. The bar is needlessly high, its just gatekeeping credentialism

B. The median school output (the median grad) is increasingly worse.

I think the actual issue is B. I think its worse than most people want to admit. It stuck out to me when I was doing a little reading about why CS enrollment seems so low[1]. Quoting my own findings here:

> What supports this theory? Can we prove aptitude is flat? Kinda. In 1970s 1-in-2 college grads aced Wordsum test. Today 1-in-6 do.[2] Using that as a proxy for IQ of the median college grad, in the 70’s it was ~112, now its ~100.

> In other words we have more people going to college than ever, but the “average grad” is less intelligent than ever. Degrees are increasingly diluted yet expensive. You can pay more money than ever to show that you are of average intelligence.

And California State is trying to push more grads through than ever, so I wonder just how comparable the pool of talent is vs other states.

> With the CSU remedial overhaul they are redefining “college readiness” as “willingness to pay the cash”. They are giving college credit for courses that 8th graders could complete. This is the most provable reduction in academic rigor I’ve seen, and it’s happening in the largest college system in the US. If anyone can explain why we shouldn’t be unhappy with a future of thousands of college grads with 8th grade reading skills, I’m all ears for the optimism.

> What’s weirder, their stated reasons for doing this are to “raise graduation rates.” That’s it. More dollars in the door, more college grads with 8th grade reading levels out.

Source for I'm talking about: https://edsource.org/2017/csu-to-overhaul-remedial-education...

I hope I'm totally wrong but I suspect the dumbing down of the bar is another bad sign. Don't take it lightly IMO.

See also blatherard's comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14772630

~~~

So: Why now?

From the Boston Globe[3] in 2014:

> Much of the flight from law school reflects the brutal reality of the employment market for lawyers. The National Association for Law Placement reports that fewer than half of lawyers graduating in 2011 eventually landed jobs in a law firm. Only 65 percent found positions requiring passage of the bar exam. At a time when many law school graduates are shouldering student-loan debts of $125,000 or more, compensation has declined painfully — the median starting salary for new lawyers in 2012 was just $61,000. And quite a few can’t find any work at all: Nine months after receiving their law degrees, 11.2 percent of the class of 2013 was unemployed.

In light of this, why is declining enrollment bad precisely, as the deans of law schools suggest in the NYT? Anything other than vested interest?

[1] (My theory is that CS enrollment is about flat because aptitude is about flat, and that rising college enrollment numbers don't represent the production of more smart people at all, they are totally masked by issues like this. CS is flat because its hard and not easy to fake your way through. More about the educational decline here: https://medium.com/@simon.sarris/why-is-computer-science-enr...)

[2] I’m using the data here: http://sda.berkeley.edu/cgi-bin/hsda?harcsda+gss16

[3] https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2014/05/09/the-lawyer-bu...

Re: California Supreme Court Moves to Make Bar Exam Easier to Pass

#18

I was surprised that this article doesn't mention that California is one of the few states that allow graduates of unaccredited law schools to sit for the bar exam. My understanding is that the bar passage rate for graduates of these programs was much lower than that of ABA-accredited institutions. Edit: I found an article with some numbers: http://abovethelaw.com/2016/11/californias-bar-exam-passage-... The breakout…

The article itself says:

"Last year, just 62 percent of first-time test takers passed the California bar exam, compared with 83 percent in New York."

The 83% are also in your data if you focus on the ABA schools only. That means failure rates are 17% and 38%, respectively, or a factor of 2.2x.

The student populations of NY and CA are probably comparable, and in any case, as the article points out, the tests are largely identical; the differences mostly stem from differing score requirements.

I'm sure there will be many snide comments about lawyers in this thread, but most law students I've come across have appeared intelligent, serious, and conscientious. I doubt that a system that cuts half of them can be considered reasonable–though I'm not sure what the consequences are? Here in 'old Europe" there are limits on how often you can take such exams–usually 3x. If you fail the third time, you may have spent 8 years studying law and end up legally barred from ever getting any degree.

Re: California Supreme Court Moves to Make Bar Exam Easier to Pass

#19
post #11

> The move follows a sometimes furious debate in California legal circles over whether the state’s passing score, or “cut score” — 144 — was unrealistic. If the passing score were unrealistic, there would be no lawyers in CA. Since there are lawyers in CA, the passing score is both realistic and achievable. I'm not an attorney in CA, but I imagine the score measures both intelligence and knowledge in the field. Why s…

Why? I wouldn't expect any lawyer to have the law completely memorized. I'd rather hire one that spends their time studying cases and strategies, and has to look up the details of statutes once in a while.

Re: California Supreme Court Moves to Make Bar Exam Easier to Pass

#20

Bar passage rates are falling because law schools have become increasingly theoretical. Many law professors have never had actual clients who pay them for legal work, or have worked as lawyers in the real world for less than five years. These profs are producing interesting academic scholarship but they are increasingly isolated from the legal profession. Law school classes, perhaps as result, tend not to teach what…

I wonder how many Computer Science professors out there used to be real "in-the-weeds" practicing software engineers.
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