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Finland makes broadband a 'legal right'

news.bbc.co.uk

21–30 of 42 posts

Re: Finland makes broadband a 'legal right'

#21

Great intentions - completely wrong way to make it happen. Regulating the broadband internet market will just make people in metropolitan areas subsidize the cost for people in rural areas. If it ended there...sure it wouldn't be fair, but at least it would be a zero sum game (some win, some equally lose). But with regulation that's never the case because: 1. you introduce additional costs for government oversight 2.…

> As Milton Friedman said, you can never judge a government program by it's intentions, only the results it gets. The results, as far as I can tell, are that Scandinavian countries have very good publicly owned infrastructure.

And they have it before the law comes into effect.

Re: Finland makes broadband a 'legal right'

#22
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As Milton Friedman said, you can never judge a government program by it's intentions, only the results it gets. The results, as far as I can tell, are that Scandinavian countries have very good publicly owned infrastructure.

And they have it before the law comes into effect.

I'm talking about much more infrastructure than just broadband. They have good public health-care systems, public transportation systems, etc. --- not just good intentions, but good results. What reason is there to believe that they won't do public broadband just as well?

Re: Finland makes broadband a 'legal right'

#23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious why you would make that analogy. Differences between the TV and health care markets aside, last time I checked, the US has perhaps both the least-regulated and most expensive health care system in the industrialized world.

Health care is a labor intensive good. Labor is more expensive in the US than in most other parts of the world, particularly high skilled labor. A haircut or a yoga lesson also costs more in the US than in most other countries for this same reason. Further, the US healthcare market has more regulations than you think. One example: in most of the world, you buy birth control pills at the store for cheap. In the US, yo…

Health care is dramatically less expensive in nearby Canada. Moreover, health care costs are increasing in the USA faster than any other country.

It is true that some US regulations do drive up costs -- you mentioned one. There are lots of other perverse incentives in the US system, because there are so many powerful players looking out for their own interests -- HMOs, hospital networks, drug manufacturers, politicians.

I would hate to see the usual libertarian/socialist debate ensue here on HN. I would like to challenge people who participate in this thread to not react reflexively, but go look up the actual data and understand what you're debating.

In the USA, many people who criticize single-payer health care don't have the first clue about it. They believe it's more expensive than the USA, there's more bureaucracy and paperwork, that there's less choice of doctors... all of which are false. False, as in not true. It doesn't matter what Milton Friedman says the world is supposed to be like. Or if you have to have a theoretical foundation before you'll believe data, go check out the foundational paper in health economics, "Uncertainty and the welfare economics of medical care", by Kenneth Arrow.

That said, back to the original post, which is about broadband regulation -- again, I urge people to go look at what happens in other countries, or indeed what happened in the USA in earlier times, when economic policies were based on data and the overall good of the country, instead of ideology.

I'm not sure if I would have classified broadband as a "right" (it seems to cheapen other rights, IMO). But faced with industries that often create natural monopolies or oligopolies (telecom is the textbook example) regulation with the goal of universal service can have good effects.

Re: Finland makes broadband a 'legal right'

#24
post #15

It's nice to see some governments recognizing that something which was once a luxury is now becoming a necessity as offline alternative for mandatory services (paying bills, job searching, etc) get stripped down or removed entirely.

A car used to be a luxury, now it's a necessity. Do you think owning a car is a legal right?

Irrespective of whether you believe governments should play a role, this is the wrong comparison to make. Governments don't provide the cars, they provide the roads.

Similarly Finland's government isn't proposing giving everyone computers - they want to make sure everyone has access to the infrastructure.

Re: Finland makes broadband a 'legal right'

#25
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A car used to be a luxury, now it's a necessity. Do you think owning a car is a legal right?

Irrespective of whether you believe governments should play a role, this is the wrong comparison to make. Governments don't provide the cars, they provide the roads . Similarly Finland's government isn't proposing giving everyone computers - they want to make sure everyone has access to the infrastructure .

You're right. I understand and agree with your point.

Thanks

Re: Finland makes broadband a 'legal right'

#26
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A car used to be a luxury, now it's a necessity. Do you think owning a car is a legal right?

Irrespective of whether you believe governments should play a role, this is the wrong comparison to make. Governments don't provide the cars, they provide the roads . Similarly Finland's government isn't proposing giving everyone computers - they want to make sure everyone has access to the infrastructure .

This is also important in Australia where the population is mostly clumped in cities along the coasts. Without similar thinking, broadband in "the bush" would simply be unavailable or prohibitively expensive.

Re: Finland makes broadband a 'legal right'

#27
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Health care is a labor intensive good. Labor is more expensive in the US than in most other parts of the world, particularly high skilled labor. A haircut or a yoga lesson also costs more in the US than in most other countries for this same reason. Further, the US healthcare market has more regulations than you think. One example: in most of the world, you buy birth control pills at the store for cheap. In the US, yo…

Health care is dramatically less expensive in nearby Canada. Moreover, health care costs are increasing in the USA faster than any other country. It is true that some US regulations do drive up costs -- you mentioned one. There are lots of other perverse incentives in the US system, because there are so many powerful players looking out for their own interests -- HMOs, hospital networks, drug manufacturers, politicia…

Health care is dramatically less expensive in nearby Canada.

High skill labor is dramatically less expensive in nearby Canada. A 99'th percentile individual costs $181k/year in Canada and $384k/year in the US.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/75-001-x/2007109/article/409688...

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/29/business/29tax.html

The 95'th percentiles are more or less the same between the US and canada ($154k in Canada, $165 in the US), but things just diverge dramatically after that point. The average over the top 5% works out to be $296,000 in Canada and $416,000 in the US.

Why would you expect health care costs to behave differently from other high skill jobs?

By the way, the most important paper in health care economics is "The Effect of Coinsurance on the Health of Adults" (http://www.rand.org/pubs/reports/2006/R3055.pdf). Everyone ignores it because the conclusion is counterintuitive, but it is bar none the highest quality study ever performed on health care economics.

Re: Finland makes broadband a 'legal right'

#28

Great intentions - completely wrong way to make it happen. Regulating the broadband internet market will just make people in metropolitan areas subsidize the cost for people in rural areas. If it ended there...sure it wouldn't be fair, but at least it would be a zero sum game (some win, some equally lose). But with regulation that's never the case because: 1. you introduce additional costs for government oversight 2.…

Free markets and unbridled competition have a much better track record of driving prices down, making new technologies available to the masses. In industries with a high barrier to entry, the market naturally tends away from competition. Broadband is one such industry, due to the enormous initial infrastructure costs.

> In industries with a high barrier to entry, the market naturally tends away from competition. Broadband is one such industry, due to the enormous initial infrastructure costs.

Maybe things are different where you live, but the bandwidth / price ratio has increased over 400% in the past 4 years for me where I live. Not a single website was blocked because the greedy corporation didn't want me to see it. Perhaps a few people were able to pay extra to video-conference, watch HDTV on demand, or do remote-surgery because my torrent downloads were throttled imperceptibly, but I think that's probably a good thing.

Re: Finland makes broadband a 'legal right'

#30
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And they have it before the law comes into effect.

I'm talking about much more infrastructure than just broadband. They have good public health-care systems, public transportation systems, etc. --- not just good intentions, but good results. What reason is there to believe that they won't do public broadband just as well?

> I'm talking about much more infrastructure than just broadband. They have good public health-care systems, public transportation systems, etc. --- not just good intentions, but good results. What reason is there to believe that they won't do public broadband just as well?

Taken as a whole, they are considerably poorer on average than US citizens (especially professionals of the calibre seen on HN). I'm not convinced, based on their self-reported claims of excellence, that their policies, if emulated, would make the USA more prosperous or more pleasant to live for the average person. I think this is doubly true for the intelligent and motivated.

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