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Redis 4.0

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Re: Redis 4.0

#91

Post by Mouse47 »

schneems wrote: post #85
Mouse47 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that the terminology doesn't matter, but consensus does. Master/slave are the commonly understood terms. Here's a question: if "slave" is offensive, should "kill" (as in 'kill 69' to kill a process in SQL Server) be considered offensive as well? Simply as a consequence of being something 'bad/immoral'? I'm sorry, and I'd be glad to be corrected, but I genuinely find this argument...disingenuous. And people wh…

Master/slave was also a commonly accepted role of business for far longer than it has been a computer term. We managed to change that in the west. I believe in us, we can do it. > I genuinely find this argument...disingenuous My argument is that the term is not technically correct. How is that disingenuous?

I'm arguing specifically against the term being offensive. EDIT: and oddly, I can't seem to find the word anywhere in your comment that I replied to. Am I losing my mind, or did you take that part out?

Re: Redis 4.0

#92

Post by butabah »

dijit wrote: post #80
jimktrains2 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm getting quite fed up of the OTT political correctness movement in tech. Is it over the top though? It's a references to a deplorable practice that humans do; why shouldn't we strive for something more civil, and more technically correct? The slave of a database isn't the property of the master and subject to its every whim; it's a replica of the data that can do separate, independent things from the master with…

> deplorable actions humans do. So when do we rename 'kill'?

'Bash' is too violent as well. We should rename it to 'hug'.

Re: Redis 4.0

#93

Post by jimktrains2 »

dijit wrote: post #80
jimktrains2 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm getting quite fed up of the OTT political correctness movement in tech. Is it over the top though? It's a references to a deplorable practice that humans do; why shouldn't we strive for something more civil, and more technically correct? The slave of a database isn't the property of the master and subject to its every whim; it's a replica of the data that can do separate, independent things from the master with…

> deplorable actions humans do. So when do we rename 'kill'?

Humans kill many things over the course of their existence. For instance, we slaughter animals for food, pluck weeds to help our crops, and preserve food by boiling or chemical means (e.g. salt).

Killing is not deplorable. Murder is deplorable. (I'm a vegetarian, so I find slaughter for food deplorable too, but I'm in the minority here.)

Re: Redis 4.0

#94

Post by jimktrains2 »

butabah wrote: post #92
dijit wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> deplorable actions humans do. So when do we rename 'kill'?

'Bash' is too violent as well. We should rename it to 'hug'.

`bash` is also pretty evangelical ;)

On a serious note, I've never actually understood where the term "hung" comes from in computing. Why is the process "hung" and not simply "stalled" or something else.

Re: Redis 4.0

#95

Post by tertius »

tclancy wrote: post #16
Sir_Cmpwn wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Happy to provide the flame you're expecting. Master/slave describes the relationship between the services and has been standard terminology for decades. I have yet to hear of any IRL victims of slavery that are miffed by the use of this terminology. Do not be offended on someone else's behalf.

But it's ok to assume a lack of offense on the part of every other person? I think we all get what the terms mean In This Context but there are other options available that don't require that kind of boxing and unboxing. Other projects have done this successfully[0] and the Redis maintainer is right here in the thread saying he understands the concern. The thing I never get with these objections is, what is the harm…

> The thing I never get with these objections is, what is the harm in raising the point/ making the change? Who loses?

A good practice should be to try to find the most convincing voice (online, not just here) with an argument that answers this question.

That's the best route to honesty. If you can't do this then you're not up for debate.

This is something we all have to do with all of our arguments or questions.

If a question is not investigated it becomes a statement. Just because the person that you're asking cannot come up with a good answer does not mean that a good one does not exist.

So you win by make a statement and not asking an honest question.

Re: Redis 4.0

#96

Post by Nadya »

matt4077 wrote: post #56
Nadya wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except in nearly every case, this is the reality of the situation: http://i.imgur.com/erINvSI.png It isn't that the people are offended - it's that others are trying to get offended "on their behalf" as a form of virtue signalling. Also see most of the "cultural appropriation" movement. Where non-Japanese people get offended that other non-Japanese wear kimono while nearly every actual Japanese person I've seen on th…

> Almost every individual I see calling to "fix" this issue is a white person speaking on "behalf" of black people. Could it be that black people are put off by people fighting for their right to use words that have no significance for them, but need to remain just "on principle", and that they're put off by such behaviour, avoid the tech sector, and therefore aren't there to be visibly offended whenever you're looki…

It "could be" but it just isn't. The reality of the situation is that minorities are being silenced or told they have "internalized racism" and whenever these actual minorities speak out on the "issue", non-minorities tell them that they're not sympathizing with minorities that it "could" effect. It's always a "could", because "could be's" don't need to exist in reality.

Of course, if any of these people fighting on "behalf" of minorities actually had minority friends this would become self evident. The coddling and speaking on behalf of the minority is almost always more offensive to the minority then whatever non-problem the non-minority is tripping over.

Imagine how a woman would feel if she was told by a man to be more sympathetic towards other women on some specific issue, because clearly the man is better able to empathize with a women's problem than the woman herself who is trying to tell the man that it isn't actually an issue and that he's making a mountain out of a mole hill. He insists in his correctness and declares that she has internalized misogyny and that he is better qualified to speak on behalf of women than she is. Swap out "woman" with "person of color" and "man" with "white person" and it has a different result?

If you fail to see how that situation is offensive then I think you're the one with the empathy issue, because you aren't actually seeing from their point of view but how you imagine their point of view to be. I'd be bloody fucking pissed if a cis person tried to educate me on issues surrounding and within the LGBT community or told me I should be offended over something (eg: being called trans, something I call myself for fuck's sake) - and of course that's happened multiple times in the past.

Re: Redis 4.0

#97

Post by dewitt »

tertius wrote: post #87
dewitt wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not opposed to offending others. : ) Just be aware when you do, and why you're doing it. The parent post simply seemed blithely unaware of how deeply hurtful the phrase can be to people. (Imagine typing that phrase out every day when literally your own great great great grandparents were dragged here in chains and were considered the personal property of someone. That's simply f'ed up and would suck beyond belief…

Honest question: Is that how you feel when you type those out?

Yeah, I actually dislike it every time myself, though that's not hugely important to me, nor why I commented.

There was some interesting commentary in this thread about cultural appropriation and whatnot, which seems to me to be beside the point. My intent was only this: if there are other people rightly upset by something, it doesn't matter if you're not, it doesn't even matter if the majority are not, it's still valuable to have empathy for those those that are. That's all.

Re: Redis 4.0

#98

Post by zo1 »

marktangotango wrote: post #22
toomuchtodo wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The words only have meaning if you give them meaning, and while a smaller progressive org might care, it doesn't seem to be a fight worth having. No one thinks your technical terminology supports the historical subjucation of a race, and I wish we could be adults and get on to real work. Outrage fatigue is a thing. I just want to build, and save the politics for my off hours. Edit: mods, feel free to detach as off to…

I grew up in a small city in south central US. Although in the south, this city only had 1% black population, which is unusually low. In the 1920 a black man was pulled out of jail by a mob and lynched (hung from a rope, killed). He was later determined to be innocent. The black population left not longer after this incident. I currently live in a city where children regularly die from drive by shooting. These childr…

>"Edit not saying you are, but if someones ancestors were slaves, and the IT dept sits around talking about masters and slaves, how would that make you feel?"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavs#Ethnonym https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery#Terminology

I feel just fine about it, thank you. I'm more disturbed by the fact that we're even having this conversation at this point in our society.

Re: Redis 4.0

#100

Post by ecesena »

antirez wrote: post #9
numbsafari wrote: post #5

I really wish Redis wouldn't use the "master/slave" terminology. Primary/replica or even Master/replica are better terms. I know I'll probably get flamed for saying this, but it's a pox on a project that I otherwise very much love.

I'm not for the change in terminology at this step, because it is very unfortunate to change the terminology of a project that is here for years, however I tried to use the fact we have this terminology to remind people of what slavery looked (and still looks in certain parts of the world) like, so: 1) We have a SLAVEOF NO ONE command which is very popular. 2) We have a note about slavery here: https://redis.io/comma…

Neat, I didn't know that.

Worth mentioning that "ciao" originated from "I'm your slave" - maybe in v5 we can have "ciao " :)

> The word derives from the Venetian phrase s-ciào vostro or s-ciào su literally meaning "I am your slave". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ciao

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