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The Decline of Marriage

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Re: The Decline of Marriage

#41

Post by watwut »

api wrote: post #33
losvedir wrote: post #27

Like I imagine many HN readers, I had a visceral negative reaction to a lot of this post, since it directly attacks a lot of the new cultural norms I grew up in (and cherish). On the other hand, it does seem to raise some interesting points, so I hope it doesn't get flagged. Our new culture is relatively untested; a lot of our ideas about sex and relationships and children are only a couple generations old. I'm happi…

Your last sentence brings up something I've been thinking about for a long time, namely that secular philosophy seems completely blind to children or to the needs of family and child rearing. It's a fairly massive shortcoming. Philosophy must address all of human life, not just the aspects that apply to early 20s single people and that subset of society that doesn't have kids. Some secular communities actively seem t…

"It's also common to see full time moms mocked, which I see as misogyny."

Well, it is not like really conservative christians would seen women as equally capable as men - it just seen as natural that women cant naturally compete and thus is better off at home. (And dont tell me no, I read local conservative christians journals, have friends in that community and occasionally visit catholic church with conservative priest.)

The only real difference is that one group see moms as throwing away skills while the other as never having them in the first place.

Re: The Decline of Marriage

#42

Post by cmahler7 »

dr_ wrote: post #29

"As mentioned in the previous essay, single parenthood correlates with a number of social maladies." This may be true historically, but does it have to be that way going forward? My thoughts, not based on studies but based on people I know, is that the general interest in marriage has declined as there is a preference for greater autonomy amongst both men and women, not to mention economic independence. Marriage was…

Your method would destroy society. Women would make the choice for who the father would be and would choose only top tier traits, leaving out a vast majority of males. Men would either have no reason to be productive members of society or would become violent.

Marriage came to be as a way to essentially harness productivity by eliminating most conflict over mates.

I'm agnostic but I still think religion as an institution is important because it binds a society together under shared beliefs. People are different colors, genders, etc but religion can be used to bind it together.

Re: The Decline of Marriage

#43

Post by cultofmetatron »

Danihan wrote: post #40
api wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your last sentence brings up something I've been thinking about for a long time, namely that secular philosophy seems completely blind to children or to the needs of family and child rearing. It's a fairly massive shortcoming. Philosophy must address all of human life, not just the aspects that apply to early 20s single people and that subset of society that doesn't have kids. Some secular communities actively seem t…

How many agnostic / atheist people do you know that have four or more kids? Atheists don't genuinely seem to believe in natural selection, it's ironic.

I believe this video properly elaborates on why https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXSz0bA9CiE

Re: The Decline of Marriage

#44

Post by kijin »

gervase wrote: post #4
rf15 wrote: post #3

While I agree that we have a problem with population growth, the author has very traditional views on marriage and its requirements for a society/population to function - there's much more to it than that. Also thanks for calling my existence "illegitimate" in 2017.

Based on the perceptual bias the author let slip, I'm surprised that graph wasn't labeled "Bastardy".

Since the blog is run by someone who uses Japanese in their name and profile, I'm considering whether I should be a little more charitable and maybe call it a result of poor translation.

Most of the stuff in the article that looks like bias to Western readers, in fact, could sound perfectly reasonable to Japanese readers for whom it might have originally been written. Japanese society is incredibly conservative when it comes to family norms.

Re: The Decline of Marriage

#45

Post by cmahler7 »

Moshe_Silnorin wrote: post #2

Natural selection will take care of this eventually, either genetically or memeticly. I suspect the outcome will not be as happy as what the traditions we flouted provided. The birth rate is likely the most telling critique of western society. Our revealed preference is our civilization is not worth perpetuating. As of now only those who deliberately desire children and those unable to follow the instructions on the…

What's your opinion on studies showing that people with lower intelligence reproduce at much higher rates? This would seem to lead to an Idiocracy like future. Do you think something should be done to prevent this?

Re: The Decline of Marriage

#46

Post by abfan1127 »

Danihan wrote: post #40
api wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your last sentence brings up something I've been thinking about for a long time, namely that secular philosophy seems completely blind to children or to the needs of family and child rearing. It's a fairly massive shortcoming. Philosophy must address all of human life, not just the aspects that apply to early 20s single people and that subset of society that doesn't have kids. Some secular communities actively seem t…

How many agnostic / atheist people do you know that have four or more kids? Atheists don't genuinely seem to believe in natural selection, it's ironic.

atheist here, 3 kids.

Re: The Decline of Marriage

#47

Post by remarkEon »

ef4 wrote: post #37
Moshe_Silnorin wrote: post #2

Natural selection will take care of this eventually, either genetically or memeticly. I suspect the outcome will not be as happy as what the traditions we flouted provided. The birth rate is likely the most telling critique of western society. Our revealed preference is our civilization is not worth perpetuating. As of now only those who deliberately desire children and those unable to follow the instructions on the…

There's a fundamental flaw hiding under arguments like yours: the "civilization" you're circumscribing is an imaginary and arbitrary boundary. An ahistorical retcon. It's as unsupported as discredited racial theories that all humans fit into three tidy buckets ("caucasoid", "mongoloid", "negroid"). For example, maybe you're talking about "Christendom". But then it's not actually in decline -- hispanics are part of Ch…

>Our civilization -- the actual web of relationships and institutions that keep the lights on -- is clearly doing fine.

Given even a passing look at just the last 2 decades, and the serious prospects for massive social unrest going forward both in the States and in Europe, which often get discussed here, how in the world can you say that. "The World" (since you apparently are one of those who think the term "Western Civilization" is racist), in my judgement, is looking at the most global security risk since the lead up to WWI. There's well documented demographic shifts in Europe that could lead to a fundamental cultural re-imaging of the continent. We might be careening into another financial crisis.

No, it is not "clearly doing fine."

Re: The Decline of Marriage

#48

Post by Djvacto »

mercutio2 wrote: post #23
Djvacto wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/07/living/sixties-women-5-things/... I think ~50 years ago referred more to this type of thing, while stuff like voting rights was just included since it's relevant to the struggle as a whole.

Agreed that 1960s housewives didn’t have it easy. But they most certainly could, and did, vote.

What I'm saying is, I doubt he thinks they couldn't vote in the '60s. I think he just used ~50 years ago earlier in his comment and then later on was mentioning some of the other struggles, like voting.

Re: The Decline of Marriage

#49

Post by cmahler7 »

Moshe_Silnorin wrote: post #31
losvedir wrote: post #27

Like I imagine many HN readers, I had a visceral negative reaction to a lot of this post, since it directly attacks a lot of the new cultural norms I grew up in (and cherish). On the other hand, it does seem to raise some interesting points, so I hope it doesn't get flagged. Our new culture is relatively untested; a lot of our ideas about sex and relationships and children are only a couple generations old. I'm happi…

>But if the people are fairly content and happy as it fades, is that such an issue. Yes, this is a horrible outcome. We must admit that we have something here that is worth preserving. If we continue to fail in this we are in a very sorry state indeed.

People have been brainwashed to hate their own culture, demorilization is the first step of ideological subversion. Western Civilization might not be perfect but there's nothing else in human history that has come close to it.

Everybody should watch this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bX3EZCVj2XA

Re: The Decline of Marriage

#50

Post by caseysoftware »

api wrote: post #33
losvedir wrote: post #27

Like I imagine many HN readers, I had a visceral negative reaction to a lot of this post, since it directly attacks a lot of the new cultural norms I grew up in (and cherish). On the other hand, it does seem to raise some interesting points, so I hope it doesn't get flagged. Our new culture is relatively untested; a lot of our ideas about sex and relationships and children are only a couple generations old. I'm happi…

Your last sentence brings up something I've been thinking about for a long time, namely that secular philosophy seems completely blind to children or to the needs of family and child rearing. It's a fairly massive shortcoming. Philosophy must address all of human life, not just the aspects that apply to early 20s single people and that subset of society that doesn't have kids. Some secular communities actively seem t…

> It's also common to see full time moms mocked, which I see as misogyny.

My wife stays at home with our boys and I've heard her mocked and derided directly to her face. The interesting thing that it's been exclusively by women (even family members). I've never heard a man question it and some seem jealous that we don't need that second income.

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